GYMN-L Digest - 20 May 1996 - Special issue

There are 16 messages totalling 616 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

1. Comments
2. The situation in Spartanburg, S.C.
3. UK press alert! and Europeans chat
4. Full twist to a split
5. political discussions on the list
6. History Channel documentary on gymnastics
7. WAG: Europeans.
8. WAG: Marinescu vs. Moceanu (2)
9. Marinescu vs Moceanu
10. Marinescu vs. Moceanu
11. Gymnastics
12. GYMN-L Digest - 20 May 1996
13. Gym chat on AOL and gym newsgroup
14. Womens Europeans (Seniors EF)
15. Programmed Gymnasts

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 04:53:09 -0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: Comments

I haven't posted in awhile and now I have a
lot to say about some recent discussions:

MARINESCU(sp?)- I think that she is a very
talented gymnast w/great attributes and potential but I also think that
she should have kept her mouth shut. Have we forgotten that these
gymnasts have feelings? I know that Moceanu reads IG and reading such
harsh words from Marinescu probably hurt her feelings. While Marinescu
is good, she is by no means outstanding and above everyone and she has
no right to say such things about such a talented gymnast. She also
said that she thinks Bogi should retire because she's too old or
something to that affect. Instead of turning her nose up at such a
legend, she should strive to be more like her. Bogi has proven to us
many times that she is by no means too old to do gymnastics anymore.
Marinescu should actually think about what she wants to say BEFORE she
says it.

I wonder if Bogi will stay in Belarus. I
wonder how Bela feels about this. First he looses Kim and then he
looses Bogi.

Speaking of Kim, anyone know how she is
doing?

Well, I've rambled enough....

Laura

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:16:14 -0400
From: ***@EAGLE.LHUP.EDU
Subject: Re: The situation in Spartanburg, S.C.

When you allow any group, for any reason to be discriminated upon, you
open the door up for people of hate to discriminate to any group for any
reason. Where will the line be drawn? First it's gays, then its for
religion, color, sex...

Whether you approve of homosexuality or not is not the issue, freedom and
rights for all American citizens is. USAG probably took this into
consideration.

Julie
> Ok, ok, ok. Of course, I knew it was coming. Somebody out there was going to
> turn this whole thing into an issue of whether or not gays should be
> accepted or not. This is really not the issue I raised. My point is that
> ACOG, USA gymnastics, or anybody else, should not get involved in this
> political games, because they are very tiresome, expensive, and just bogs
> down those who get involved. It causes more problems than it solves.
>
> Some of you are happy that USA gymnastics THREATENED to pull the men's
> olympic team training out of Spartanburg. Today Spartanburg rescended their
> "resolution" in fear of losing their part in the olympic torch run and the
> site of the men's pre-olympic training. Since you want to be a part this
> political fight, fine.
>
> But let me bring this issue to the table- are you willing to protest the GA
> state legislature for endorsing the confederate battle flag as part of the
> state flag? Are you willing to protest the GA state legislature for passing
> a "resolution" making English the official language of Ga? Are you willing
> to protest and boycott the entire state of California, for passing
> proposition 47, which has strict laws on "illegal" aliens?
>
> In each one of the previous examples, one group or another was offended by
> the "resolutions" or laws. If you raise sand over the "resolution" (which,
> by the way, is virtually meanless) passed by the Cobb, Wayne, and
> Spartanburg county commissions, what about the other resolutions? Some
> blacks are offended by the state flag, some Asians are offended by the GA
> "official language" law, and some Latinos are offended by proposition 47. So
> their pain doesn't count? Oh, but only gays feelings matter?
>
> This is the sticky situation you will get yourself in applauding these
> decisions by olympic officials to punish cities and townships over their
> county commissioners stupid "resolutions". Unless you are a hypocrite, you
> have to boycott Atlanta, and all of Georgia, because blacks, Asians,
> Latinos, and other groups are offended by various "resolutions".You have to
> boycott and condemn California for passing proposition 47. What, are you in
> a jam? A tough question?
>
> You have to think about this whole situation LOGICALLY and RATIONALLY. Not
> emotionally. Besides that, some people agree with the county commisioners
> "resolutions". There are a lot who do. Homosexuality is not entirely
> accepted throughout America and the world. It is seen by some, as unnatural
> and as social deviance. To argue about whether or not homosexuality is good
> is a waste of time and energy. Everybody has an opinion about it. And this
> is what getting involved in this whole can of worms comes down, voting on
> the homosexual lifestyle. And that opens the door to others demanding the
> same actions for their grievances. When you stay out of it, you save
> yourself a whole lot of trouble.
>
> OH, by the way, before you e-mail me, or post a message to gymn, think
> rationally and not emotionally. I know a whole of people on this forum are
> emotion driven. They are quick to raise hell, post dirty messages, make
> personal insults, flame people for weeks and months on end. Think about what
> I have said, before you burn your modem out trying to slaughter everybody
> you think doesn't love gay people and the gay lifestyle. The issue is not
> about that. Remember that.
>
> I say again remember that, because somebody missed it already.
>

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:33:04 GMT
From: ***@M4-ARTS.BHAM.AC.UK
Subject: UK press alert! and Europeans chat

Hi all

Just to say that tonight on C4 at 8pm is the "Fair Game" programme I
was so worried about. There was an article in the Mail on Sunday
yesterday about it. Apparently it's going to be a gymnasts-who-
train-lots-don't-eat-or-grow-properly thing, taking the example of
Janine Mortimer (City of Liverpool gymnast, also on the Welsh team,
I think?) who happens to have a (non-identical) twin sister who gave
up gymnastics a few years ago and is now eight inches taller than
her sister. I shall be interested to see how they get any scientific
evidence out of this one, seeing as they're not even identical twins.

In the article there are several quotes from British artistic team
members (notably Zita Lusack, who has been accused of being
"overweight" in the past) as well as rhythmic gymnasts and a random
quote from Sandy Henrich (a case which wasn't at all high-profile
over here). Of course it's done in a sensationalist style - we are
talking tabloid after all! - but I shall be intrigued to see how C4
deal with it.

Ameera - I assume you'll want a copy of this article? Let me know.

On a happier note - didn't the British girls do well?! Only 2 falls
in the team competition (a miracle?!) and our highest placing for a
long time! Annika Reeder did well to finish 13th in the AA, too.
Did anyone catch the BBC coverage? (wow, four hours!) During the
event finals they did this really cool "virtual gymnastics"
sequence, taking the viewer through what the gymnast sees as she
performs moves on each apparatus - giants/Tkatchev on bars, acro
sequence and front somi on beam etc. It was really clever!

The two going to Atlanta are apparently going to be Reeder and
Spelthorne/Wales gymnast Sonia Lawrence (hurrah!).

Finally, one girl who *really* impressed me in the team competition
(the only one I saw "live") was Tsavdaridou of Greece. All the
Greeks' choreography was great, really inventive and using
traditional Greek music (this folky Russian stuff is beginning to
get to me; it was nice to hear something different for a change!),
but I thought she was outstanding and deserved to place in the top
10 - the unofficial "Western European champion". Does anyone know
any more about her?

Thanks!

Bex

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:40:20 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Full twist to a split

> 4) A gymnast did a sequence on FX:
>
> RUNNING FRONT-RO-FF-FF- full twist directly into
> a split (UGH!!!!)
>
>
> What is the value of that last move? I've never seen it before.

A Buddy of mine named Skip Basil used to do this trick when he competed in
old timer's .....ooops sorry Skip .....I mean Master's meets. I believe it's
a C. And it's not terribly difficult or dangerous provided you have a great
deal of flexibility and a good full.

Dean

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:40:33 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: political discussions on the list


> 1. STOP THE POLITICAL DISCUSSION PLEASE!! I think everyone has
> had enough of these type of fighting on the list.

I am very sorry you (and others on the list) feel that way. But I feel that
this discussion has very large repercussions on the sport of gymnastics and
thus is singularly relevant for discussion on the list. Should we (as a
sport) get involved in political fights or should we restrict our concern to
the sport itself. Am I the only one that sees a variety of nasty consequences
of the former decision. Of course the implication of all these "shut up"
posts like the one above is that most of you agree with me that we should
stick to gymnastics and let ACTUP fend for themselves.

Dean

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:30:32 EDT
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: History Channel documentary on gymnastics

The History Channel is doing a series of 5 hour-long documentaries this week
called "Road to Glory: The Olympics." One is on gymnastics.
Here's the info from their web site (http://www.historychannel.com):

Series: Road to Glory: The Olympics.

Gymnastics.

A profile of the great gymnasts with a special focus on Iron Curtain athletes.
Features Russia's Larissa Latynina, who won 18 medals, morethan any other
athlete in
Olympic history; the charismatic Olga Korbut; and Nadia Comaneci, who scored the
first
"10."

Date Time (Eastern)

Tuesday 5/21 8pm
Wednesday 5/22 12am
Wednesday 5/22 5am
Saturday 5/25 8pm
Sunday 5/26 12am
Sunday 5/26 4am


Of possible related interest:

Other programs will focus on swimming and diving (Weissmuller, Spitz,
Louganis), first showing Wed. 5/22 at 8 p.m. (1 or 3 hours), and figure skating
(1 hour, starting Friday 5/24 at 8 p.m.), sprinting (starting tonight
[Mon 5/20] at 8 p.m.), and the Dream Team (starting Thurs. 5/23 at 8 pm.)

All the documentaries will be shown back-to-back in a 5-hour block
starting Saturday 5/25 at 7 pm.

>>Kathy

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:57:47 EDT
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: WAG: Europeans.

Frances writes, responding to Jeffrey re:
Boginskaya at Europeans:

>The content-gap between her and the younger "crop" was more apparent in
>event finals than AA (as is often the case). Her second in AA flattered
>her to the extent that so many athletes were "off" in AA, and by doing
>what she can so cleanly she was able to edge by them. She's really back,
>and it's great to see her, but I think she would have dropped back half-
>a-dozen places had others been firing on all cylinders.

But with all her experience, Bogi may medal in AA in Atlanta
by doing the same thing again--being clean, being consistent,
and _not_ having a major break due to youth/nerves. Whoever
wins (or even medals) in Atlanta is going to be someone who
refrained from giving anything away with form errors, not
just someone who avoided major breaks. That bodes well for
Pod and Bogi, and other veterans like Milosovici or Miller.

I have to agree with those who've castigated Milo's FX choreography.
The music itself is so bad that I wouldn't be surprised if it
cost her the AA title in Atlanta, all other things being equal.
It's a shame, too, because I've come to like her gymnastics
more and more over the last few years, and I'd like to see her
go out on a high note. Why can't more Romanians do routines like
Gogean's, where at least there's rhyme and reason to the music?

Irrelevant psychological aside:

In some recent gymn coverage on TV (maybe men's NCAA's on ESPN),
the commentator (probably Tim Daggett, then) referred to the
"*new* Code of Points" (emphasis added). Considering it's only
going to be with us a few more months, I wonder if that's a sign
of the continuing frustration/dislike the 1992-1996 code has given
so many of us?

>>Kathy

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:26:47 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: WAG: Marinescu vs. Moceanu

1) MYTH #1:

Marinescu has never proven herself.


Excuse me. What do you call her being on two World
Champion teams and winning medals both times? What do you
call two European Champs? What do you call Her victory at the
Pre-Olympics over the likes of Groshova, Galieva, Piskun, and
Bogi (even though Bogi didn't finish the meet?)

I'd say that she's proven herself and she's ready.


2) Myth #2:

Marinescu should be quiet and not speak her mind
about Moceanu.


Excuse me. wasn't it Bela Karolyi who had some rather harsh
things to say about Bogi back in the early 90's? Wasn't
it Bogi who had her words 'cut up' to make it sound bad
when talking about Zmeskal? Maybe Marinescu's words were
'altered' due to translation or editing? Maybe they weren't,
But, she is far from the first gymnast to have come across
as mad or disliking another athlete.

3) Myth #3:

Moceanu will win Atlanta.

It hasn't been decided yet. It really hasn't. I'd have to say that
the top runners are Pods, Marinescu, Amanar, and whoever is number
one in Asia (what's going on there now prior to the Olympics.)


I'd have to say that the best chance for Moceanu to medal in Atlanta
has nothing to do with her, but with the ability of Amanar, Milo,
and Gogean, to keep Mareniscu out of AA finals. I really think
they won't, since Alex is so talented, but who knows.


I guess I'll have to change my .sig file now:


Jeff

Dina, Dina, Dina, & Marinescu, Marinescu, Marinescu.


You notice how no one ever questions Moceanu. What are her accomplishments
outside of the silver in Sabae?

Or for that fact, outside the US of A .

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:03:23 -0400
From: ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Marinescu vs Moceanu

I know I have already commented on this, but I just had to
comment about something that someone said. Let's think about exactly
what Alexandra Marinescu said about Dominique Moceanu. She said she had
competed against better (and who out there actually believes that this
statement is not true? If you say this is not true that means you are
saying that Dominique Moceanu is actually undoubtedly the best gymnast in
ther world. Now who honestly actually believes this?) Marinescu also
said that Moceanu "has a lot to learn". Well, this statement can
certainly be applied to anybody in any facet of life. I would hardly
call these two statements harsh. As a linguistics major at university I
can tell you that you can lose a lot in translation and that some words
have a different connotation in one language than in another, which may
explain why her words may have been misconstrued. In that IG interview
where she said that Bogi should retire, well since you can't tell the
tone of voice based upon the written word, we have no way of knowing how
this comment was meant to be taken. In fact, it has in brackets after
that comment the word laugh, which leads me to believe she wasn't totally
serious. In the same interview, she praises Milo, saying that even when
you are older you can still do very good gymnastics and still win.
Anyway, I don't mean necessarily to drag on this discussion, but
I just think it is unfortunate that there are so many people who refuse
to like Marinescu as a gymnast just because of a couple of comments she
made that have been blown out of proportion. Let her gymnastics speak
for itself and there is no denying that she is a good gymnast.
Chris.

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:29:36 -0400
From: ***@ISMI.NET
Subject: Marinescu vs. Moceanu

Hey all! I never knew that gymnastics was such contraversial sport. I am
been reading all these messages dealing with Marinescu and Moceanu and have
been quite shocked at some of the comments. First off, I don't think that
it is anyone's place to say wrether or not Marinescu was wrong for speaking
her mind in the mag., in the U.S. that was consider a bit rude however in
her country it may be the norm to speak your mind, if the U.S. people did
this we may not have so many people dying of ulcers. We can't expect her to
know our customs and go by them for an interview.
Secondly, everyone is already narrowing down the field when predicting who
is going to win the AA gold in Atlanta. Everyone has forgotten Miller,
Dawes, and Strug who are all still improving greatly with age. Miller is a
2 time world champion, Dawes should be, and Strug is currently 7th in the
world. I know that Strug would be a real long shot, I just add her in
because she is my favorite gymnast of all time, but Miller and Dawes
definately have chances. Dawes weekest points are all in compulseries, but
her optionals are great and could easily win a medal if she hits. Miller
will be on that awards stand if she repeats from 1992, which she can. Her
difficulty is awesome and her form is unbeatable, except for maybe by Pod.
We also are leaving Phelps out of this who is awesome and is really gonna
challange for the gold as U.S.A.'s and perhaps in Atlanta. Well, now that I
have spoken my mind please don't hesitate to write back.
DEAN

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:35:00 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Gymnastics

Hello!
My name is John. I am a 19 year old college student from
Massachusetts. I became interested in gymnastics at the rather late age of
16. My sister was a level 5 gymnast at a local club in town, and I used to go
to the gym and watch her team practice, and became fasinated with the sport.
I guess the rest is history! Now, asside from commuting to college, I coach
at her gym, which is called McKeons. Asside from gymnastics, McKeons also has
different types of dance, karate, so it may considered a performing arts
school. Every year, the dance and gymnastic teams come together to do a big
production number, involving music, costumes, choreography, sets, dance and
tumbling. The school has became famous for its amazing production to Disneys
"Aladdin", winning a National competition in New Jersey in 1994. Because of
that win, we were one of seven clubs chosen to represent the United States in
the "World Gymnaestrada 95" held in Berlin Germany last summer. It was an
incredible experience to go there and see some incredible gymnastics.

Asside from coaching and school, I also work out at another gym called
Sterling Academy, which is a much bigger gym, with elite gymnasts and expert
coaches. My goal is to transfer to another college with a good collegiate
program for the fall of 1997. I really want to compete gymnastics in college.
Right now, I am looking at 3 schools in Virginia.

I would like to here from any gymnasts out there, especially college
gymnasts. I am always looking for new friends to chat with, so write to me!

John
from massachusetts

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:41:28 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Re: WAG: Marinescu vs. Moceanu

I won't take it personnaly, but I have to ask: What has Moceanu done
outside the US and at Sabae? I only ask this since people tend to think
that the she's a lock because of the home court, whereas they use the
hlaf-empty analogy with Mareniscu. I just wish that people might like
to think about accomplishments as an indicator as opposed to USA champs,
where everything is inflated.

I really don't 'dislike' Moceanu as a person. I don't even know her and
I can't say anything about her personality. I only question her past
accompishments as an indicator of her future potential. Many gymnasts
who are at 'the top' now have extensive credentials and have proven them
-selves time and time again. Examples:


Pod: World Champion All around (1995)
Medals in the 1994 worlds and Europeans

Success at numerous international competitions around
the world (i.e. Subway, 1994 Goodwill, ect.)


The same could be said for many other gymnast who are in the top 10
of the world. BUt when people argue that Moceanu's potential is
better than Marinescu's (or for that fact, Alexandra's REALITY), I really
have to question it and wonder what basis is the judgement made? So, I
ask of the list (since I don't get IG ) has Moceanu proven herself
against the world's best outside the Sabae worlds?

Jeff


Dina and Marinescu, oh my!

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:35:12 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 20 May 1996

In a message dated 96-05-20 06:03:11 EDT, you write:

>So...let's see...the FX gold will be going to the most photogenic
>American who will receive a volcanic crowd reaction for performing a
>cutesy-pie routine to the incidental backdrop of Liberace's Greatest
>Hits.

Hmm.... can we say, Dominique Moceanu?

Jenny

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:43:00 -0400
From: ***@INETNOW.NET
Subject: Gym chat on AOL and gym newsgroup

I have been participating in the AOL gymnastics chat on Sunday nights (8-9pm
EST). The chat sessions are becoming very good. This Sunday there were over
10 people in the room at times. This is a lot more than most gymn IRC chats.
The conversations were very entertaining and informative. There was a wide
range of people who participated, men and women, young and old, gymnast and
fan.

This is what the internet is all about, the interactive exchange of ideas.
Bulletin boards are good places to exchange ideas, but nothing quite
replaces the live connection, like a "chat room". I know there are a lot of
gymn members who are on AOL. If you are interested in chat, and have time,
you should stop by the gymnastics chat on Sunday evenings. It is at 8-9pm,
in the Sports area, under the Grandstand arena. I think you will be enriched
by participating, even if you call yourself a gym "old-timer". You will
probably make our chats more exciting and informative.

Also, I will upload the competition results of the European championships
and the U.S. Classic to the alt.sports.newsgroup. This is a very
underutilized newsgroup. I think more gymn members and gymnastics fan should
post some of their messages on the newsgroup. This would give gymnastics
fans who aren't on gymn, a place to find news and info that can't be found
on the AOL bulletin boards (There are lot of messages, but not much substance).

Also, I am in the process of trying getting some gym "stars" to make
appearances on AOL. I have connections with and know several big name
gymnasts. I won't go into details here, but hopeful by the beginning of
June, we will have a few of them visit the Sunday night chats, or maybe some
other time. I think you will be pleasantly surprised, if you watch for it.

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:00:30 -0400
From: ***@VAXC.HOFSTRA.EDU
Subject: Re: Womens Europeans (Seniors EF)

I agree wholeheartedly about the romanian floor excersises. You can't
argue that that they don't have the best tumbling, because they do. I
feel that they are not as innovative as khorkina, furnon, tousekk. Those
gymnasts are innovative and wonderful with their choreography, and their
tumbling. I think Onodi was the best floorer, with EXCELLENT
choreography and wonder tumbling. As for the best choreography of the
Americans, Miller is a beautiful dancer.
Just my opinion,
Alisa

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Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:54:30 -0400
From: ***@FOX.NSTN.CA
Subject: Programmed Gymnasts

This post is not for the intention of starting a Moceanu v Marinescu
flame war but to discuss, in part, the way the gymnastics community
accepts and condones quiet, submissive gymnasts. We have wanted to comment on
this matter for quite awhile, but could
not contain ourselves any longer after Alisa posted the following: (note: the
capitalized words are our doing)

"There are plenty of QUIET, UNASSUMING GYMNASTS who are much better and
have proven so in competition" and:-

"How about a gymnast like Kerri Strug or Laetitia Begue or even Yelena Piskun
who are
QUIET and do their stuff, get it done and get little or no recognition."

We find comments such as this to be very disturbing and feel that too many
people have the wrong perception as to how gymnasts should act. For
example, all the talk recently has been about Alexandra Marinescu and the fact
that
many people feel that she was being arrogant or too outspoken about her
feelings regarding other gymnasts and their abilities. For one, she was
being interviewed by Nadia Comaneci, who herself was very bold and
outspoken as a young gymnast, just due to the fact that she was very
confident, as is Marinescu. All Romanian gymnasts idolize Nadia and would
surely want to impress her. You may recall that at the 1975 European
Championships, an ABC commentator asked Nadia if she as good as Olga
Korbut and Nadia replied, with a wry smile, that she was better. Is it so wrong
for a gymnast to
have a sense of humour or for them to be interviewed without being
pre-programmed as to what to say to the public?

The most obvious of this "gymnast pre-programming" situation occurred
during an interview with Mina Kim of the US at the 1995 International
Mixed Pairs meet. When Mina was asked what it's like to train with
Shannon Miller, she replied, (without even thinking and in extremely
robotic and rehearsed manner) "It's really neat to have a have a two-time
World Champion and Olympian in your gym to see everyday who sets the high
standards in the world" and that she admires Shannon Miller because "she
is really QUIET and gives 100% everyday".

WHY DOES EVERYONE ADMIRE GYMNASTS BECAUSE THEY ARE QUIET? Do we still live
in a subservient society??!!

Can you believe that a 14 year old gymnast has the confidence to express
her true feelings and opinions?! Imagine the nerve!!

Leslie and Jennifer

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 20 May 1996 - Special issue
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