GYMN-L Digest - 17 May 1996 to 18 May 1996

There are 9 messages totalling 559 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. The situation in Spartanburg, S.C.
2. How can I UNsubscribe?
3. Can we PLEASE drop it?
4. US Classic: Day 1
5. Olympic announcers
6. pressure on Moceanu
7. Mr Utz
8. cobb county
9. percentages and flamewars

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Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 21:22:46 -0400
From: ***@INETNOW.NET
Subject: The situation in Spartanburg, S.C.

Ok, ok, ok. Of course, I knew it was coming. Somebody out there was going to
turn this whole thing into an issue of whether or not gays should be
accepted or not. This is really not the issue I raised. My point is that
ACOG, USA gymnastics, or anybody else, should not get involved in this
political games, because they are very tiresome, expensive, and just bogs
down those who get involved. It causes more problems than it solves.

Some of you are happy that USA gymnastics THREATENED to pull the men's
olympic team training out of Spartanburg. Today Spartanburg rescended their
"resolution" in fear of losing their part in the olympic torch run and the
site of the men's pre-olympic training. Since you want to be a part this
political fight, fine.

But let me bring this issue to the table- are you willing to protest the GA
state legislature for endorsing the confederate battle flag as part of the
state flag? Are you willing to protest the GA state legislature for passing
a "resolution" making English the official language of Ga? Are you willing
to protest and boycott the entire state of California, for passing
proposition 47, which has strict laws on "illegal" aliens?

In each one of the previous examples, one group or another was offended by
the "resolutions" or laws. If you raise sand over the "resolution" (which,
by the way, is virtually meanless) passed by the Cobb, Wayne, and
Spartanburg county commissions, what about the other resolutions? Some
blacks are offended by the state flag, some Asians are offended by the GA
"official language" law, and some Latinos are offended by proposition 47. So
their pain doesn't count? Oh, but only gays feelings matter?

This is the sticky situation you will get yourself in applauding these
decisions by olympic officials to punish cities and townships over their
county commissioners stupid "resolutions". Unless you are a hypocrite, you
have to boycott Atlanta, and all of Georgia, because blacks, Asians,
Latinos, and other groups are offended by various "resolutions".You have to
boycott and condemn California for passing proposition 47. What, are you in
a jam? A tough question?

You have to think about this whole situation LOGICALLY and RATIONALLY. Not
emotionally. Besides that, some people agree with the county commisioners
"resolutions". There are a lot who do. Homosexuality is not entirely
accepted throughout America and the world. It is seen by some, as unnatural
and as social deviance. To argue about whether or not homosexuality is good
is a waste of time and energy. Everybody has an opinion about it. And this
is what getting involved in this whole can of worms comes down, voting on
the homosexual lifestyle. And that opens the door to others demanding the
same actions for their grievances. When you stay out of it, you save
yourself a whole lot of trouble.

OH, by the way, before you e-mail me, or post a message to gymn, think
rationally and not emotionally. I know a whole of people on this forum are
emotion driven. They are quick to raise hell, post dirty messages, make
personal insults, flame people for weeks and months on end. Think about what
I have said, before you burn your modem out trying to slaughter everybody
you think doesn't love gay people and the gay lifestyle. The issue is not
about that. Remember that.

I say again remember that, because somebody missed it already.

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Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:06:23 -0400
From: ***@POND.COM
Subject: How can I UNsubscribe?

I know I shouldn't be asking this question because I should have saved the
stuff when I got it. Sorry. I printed the e-mail address out but I lost
it. So, if someone could tell me how to unsubscribe I'd be very grateful.

Thanks alot,
Molly

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Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:18:09 -0500
From: ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject: Can we PLEASE drop it?

I second the earlier request. The Saprtenburg thread is rapidly degrading
into something non-gymn related (it was marginal to begin with). Take it
to private email or drop it...I'm sick of logging on and having to delete
this stuff twice (second email account for two weeks).

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Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:11:00 MDT
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: US Classic: Day 1

1996 US Classic
Colorado Springs, CO
May 17, 1996

These results and more details can be found on USA Gymnastics Online,
at http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/usag/

Senior Internationals - Compulsories
AA Weighted
1 Dominique Moceanu 9.825 9.750 9.800 9.825 39.200 47.040
2 Amanda Borden 9.425 9.750 9.725 9.775 38.675 46.410
3 Jennie Thompson 9.650 9.550 9.675 9.650 38.525 46.230
4 Kerri Strug 9.775 9.200 9.275 9.700 37.950 45.540
5 Amy Chow 9.550 9.675 9.275 9.325 37.825 45.390
6 Dominique Dawes 9.700 8.750 9.525 9.650 37.625 45.150
7 Mary Beth Arnold 9.350 9.500 9.000 9.400 37.250 44.700
8 Andree Pickens 9.375 9.600 9.225 9.000 37.200 44.640
9 Monica Flammer 9.325 9.350 8.950 9.550 37.175 44.610
10 Katie Teft 9.300 9.675 8.700 9.450 37.125 44.550
11 Kristen Maloney 9.025 9.375 9.175 9.350 36.925 44.310
12 Mohini Bhardwaj 9.300 9.375 9.150 8.900 36.725 44.070
13 Soni Meduna 8.975 9.100 9.025 9.500 36.600 43.920
14 Larissa Fontaine 9.400 9.300 8.825 9.000 36.525 43.830
15 Raegan Tomasek 9.250 8.775 8.950 9.400 36.375 43.650
16 Elizabeth Reid 8.975 9.000 8.625 9.300 35.900 43.080
17 Kara Fry 9.225 7.850 9.225 9.225 35.525 42.630
18 Shannon Bowles 9.225 9.000 8.275 8.550 35.050 42.060
19 * Marilou Cousineau 8.750 9.150 8.375 8.725 35.000 42.000
20 * Jennifer Exaltacion 9.025 8.450 8.750 8.450 34.675 41.610
21 Lisa Geckle 8.700 8.925 7.700 8.750 34.075 40.890
22 Nicole Bongiovanni 8.875 8.750 7.850 8.475 33.950 40.740
23 Talya Vexler 8.300 8.500 7.950 8.375 33.125 39.750
24 Ashley Kever 8.975 6.275 8.700 8.350 32.300 38.760
25 Amy Shelton 8.575 7.150 8.250 8.250 32.225 38.670
26 Theresa Kulikowski 0.000 9.625 9.500 9.700 28.825 34.590
27 Shannon Miller 9.675 9.150 0.000 0.000 18.825 22.590

Senior Nationals - Final

1 Kristi Lichey North 9.475 9.650 9.125 9.500 37.750
2 Mary Ann Esposito East 9.450 9.275 9.425 9.250 37.400
3 Kathleen Shrieves East 9.325 9.175 9.475 8.900 36.875
4 Alexis Norman East 9.350 8.175 9.400 9.600 36.525
5 Lea Carver West 8.850 8.800 9.500 9.300 36.450
6 Amy Kuczera North 9.350 9.125 8.300 9.550 36.325
7 Amy RIngo West 9.275 8.400 9.425 9.150 36.250
8 Ketie Hornecker North 9.575 8.850 8.675 9.050 36.150
9 Tami Taylor West 9.450 8.600 8.925 9.100 36.075
10 Tiffani White West 8.975 8.325 9.525 9.200 36.025
11 Erica Tidwell South 9.025 8.975 8.550 9.225 35.775
12 Annie Campbell West 8.875 8.375 9.225 9.125 35.600
13 Rhonda Robinette West 9.050 8.625 8.650 9.175 35.500
14 Helene Kenny East 8.950 9.175 8.250 9.100 35.475
15 Giselle Boniforti South 9.275 7.650 9.400 9.100 35.425
16 Leah Mueller North 9.525 8.200 8.800 8.825 35.350
17 Britnee Bowden West 9.400 9.125 8.675 8.050 35.250
18 Stephanie Buerkel East 9.100 9.050 8.525 8.400 35.075
18 Kristin Sanborn South 9.050 8.125 8.875 9.025 35.075
20 Lindsay Miner North 9.225 8.250 8.825 8.750 35.050
21 Sally Cantrell South 8.900 8.675 8.650 8.750 34.975
22 Catie Christensen North 8.800 9.250 8.275 8.525 34.850
23 Stephanie Kite South 9.425 7.150 8.825 9.250 34.650
24 Emily Pritchard West 8.250 8.600 9.075 8.475 34.400
25 Autumn Jefferies South 9.125 8.300 8.250 8.675 34.350
26 Laura Ohlendorf South 9.025 8.725 8.350 8.100 34.200
26 Sara Forti East 8.900 8.275 8.350 8.675 34.200
28 Megan Skokut North 8.850 8.725 8.125 8.450 34.150
29 Christy Mann South 8.700 8.000 8.150 8.850 33.700
30 Liz Kotler East 9.175 8.300 8.650 7.550 33.675
31 Kristen Fargo East 9.050 8.475 7.150 8.850 33.525
32 Kim Dendramis North 9.300 7.750 8.450 7.750 33.250

Junior Nationals - Optionals (compulsory testing tomorrow)
AA Weighted
1 Monique Chang East 9.300 9.250 9.175 9.675 37.400 44.880
2 Nicole Lyme North 9.475 9.025 9.275 9.500 37.275 44.730
3 Jamie Schell East 9.200 9.150 9.175 9.575 37.100 44.520
4 Christy Ray East 9.300 9.325 9.100 8.900 36.625 43.950
5 Erin Dooley East 9.150 8.825 9.275 9.350 36.600 43.920
6 Annabeth Eberle West 8.925 8.875 8.925 9.500 36.225 43.470
7 Sheehan Lemley East 9.100 8.925 8.850 9.325 36.200 43.440
8 Laura Santos North 9.400 8.600 8.850 9.025 35.875 43.050
9 Tiffany Van Dusen North 9.425 8.250 9.200 8.975 35.850 43.020
10 Kristin Uransky East 8.950 9.200 8.750 8.725 35.625 42.750
11 Sarah Get East 9.350 8.775 8.375 9.100 35.600 42.720
12 Ashley Miles South 9.400 8.600 8.675 8.750 35.425 42.510
13 Emily Coddington North 9.000 9.450 9.150 7.750 35.350 42.420
13 Tasha Schwikert West 9.275 8.325 9.125 8.625 35.350 42.420
15 Dana Earls North 9.275 8.125 9.275 8.600 35.275 42.330
16 Amber Melvin North 9.300 8.700 9.000 8.250 35.250 42.300
17 Lindsay Nelson South 8.725 8.700 8.975 8.750 35.150 42.180
18 Anji Garcia West 8.875 8.850 8.975 8.400 35.100 42.120
19 Maureen La Rocque West 9.025 7.225 9.475 9.325 35.050 42.060
20 Stephanie Carter East 9.375 8.200 8.750 8.700 35.025 42.030
21 Jessica Pelz West 8.925 8.425 8.700 8.900 34.950 41.940
22 Kara Kapernekas North 8.725 9.000 8.450 8.600 34.775 41.730
23 Kasie Tamayo West 9.375 7.300 8.825 9.175 34.675 41.610
23 Caroline Fluhrer West 8.850 8.375 8.675 8.775 34.675 41.610
25 Micha Gross South 9.025 7.850 8.500 9.100 34.475 41.370
26 Brittany Koncak South 8.950 8.325 8.050 9.000 34.325 41.190
27 Whitney Ferguson North 8.575 9.300 8.200 7.650 33.725 40.470
28 Renee Clark South 8.800 8.575 8.300 7.975 33.650 40.380
29 Cassie Cosgrove South 9.125 8.550 7.400 8.300 33.375 40.050
30 Tanya Powers South 9.350 8.325 7.700 7.400 32.775 39.330
31 Whitney Cashwell South 0.000 8.300 0.000 0.000 8.300 9.960

--
Rachele

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Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:26:16 +0000
From: ***@ALOHA.NET
Subject: Olympic announcers

While we are on the subject of the Olympic announcers:

Who the hell is Don Criqui? I've seen Elfi Schlegel do commentary on
Rhythmic. If this Criqui guy is the same one who did the RSG portion
of the Triplecast with Wendy Hilliard-God help us all!!! This person
did not know a single thing about the sport and made the most sexist
and inane remarks.

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Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:45:52 +1000
From: ***@OZEMAIL.COM.AU
Subject: pressure on Moceanu

I have been reading with interest the many posts over the last few months
regarding all the pressure on Dominique Moceanu, and the comparisons with
Kim Zmeskal in 1992.

I have to add a few things here.

First, Moceanu and Zmeskal are two different gymnasts in two entirely
different situations. Zmeskal entered Barcelona as the reigning world champ
and had a successful outing at the Paris worlds a few months prior to the
Olympics. Moceanu does not have these credentials.

Second, Moceanu may well be America's best hope for a medal in Atlanta. She
is one of many serious contenders for top honours. IMO, the media likes to
latch onto a particular gymnast to generate interest in the sport for people
who don't know much about the sport and only see it every four years at the
Olympics.

Third, I'm not too sure I agree that Karolyi is trying to "shield" Moceanu
and that he has "learnt his lesson" from the Zmeskal situation in 1992.
Karolyi has trained heaps of gymnasts, many of whom have attracted publicity
before they actually did anything. Retton was always a contender for AA
gold in LA. Same with Comaneci in 1980 and DEFINITELY in 1976. Phillips,
well, IMO, she was always a bit of a flash in the pan. Karolyi is not a
dumb man. He has been in this sport for years. IMO, he knows how to
attract publicity.

Who knows what Moceanu thinks of the situation? Does anyone know for sure
she is feeling the pressure?

History is unlikely to repeat itself. IMO, the only similarities between
Zmeskal and Moceanu is their coach and that irritating, boppy, bouncy
choreography on FX.

Just my opinion,

Simone.

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Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:04:54 -0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Mr Utz

I got a giggle over Mr Utz's misadventures on the list.

Last time i ran stats on the list 95% of the list traffic is girls gymnastics
related. This list really should be girls-gymn-l....

Its actually nice to see a guy on here who actually follows guys gymnastics.
Too darn many traitors on here..... (Grrrrrr)

Ill be in Chicago in Oct for the Systems Admin conference. Then Ill stick
around, cruise through Hinsdale, Joliet, and of course Downers Grave.
I also nee to drop by UIUC and take Yoshi Hayasaki to lunch.
So If theres any decent gymnastics to be seen youll have to direct me there.

-texx

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Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 02:04:28 -0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: cobb county

I was PISSED when I read this:
(I can not let this bigotry alone, I MUST comment on it!)
Im infuriated !

But I shouldda known there had to be one of these on the list somewhere...

Automatic digest processor writes:

{...}

> Subject: The U.S. men's team training in Spartanburg, S.C.
>
> In the Thursday edition of the Atlanta Journal, the newspaper stated that
> the U.S. men's gymnastics team, which was scheduled to train in Spartanburg,
> S.C., would not do so. This decision was made by USA gymnastics because the
> Spartanburg city council recently passed a resolution similiar to the ones
> in several cities all over the nation, "condemning the gay lifestyle".
>
> Just exactly does "condemning the gay lifestyle" mean anyway when uttered by
> a government official? Should it the statements of one man or a group of
> people affect the social and business interests of an entire city, state,
> and region? This entire debacle started when ACOG bowed down to some threats
> by a few radical gay and lesbians to protest during the olympics if they
> gave any Olympic venues, sports, or anything to Cobb county, GA, one of the
> original cities whose commisioners passed one of these "resolutions". An
> entire county was stripped of any involvement with the Olympics, by the
> Atlanta Commitee for the Olympic Games (ACOG). Cobb County is right next to
> Fulton county, the site of the city of Atlanta and the "olympic ring". There
> are olympic venues in almost all of the other counties surrounding Fulton.

How radical are these gays and lesbians ?
They really radical or just no longer willing to tolerate your hate ?
Does standing up for your rights, demanding no more and no less rights
that the next person have, does that make you a radical ?

Cobb County was reminded
"Liberty & justics for ALL! What part does Cobb County not understand ?"

Counties that make policies or speak in favor of policies that suggest
the denial of civil liberties, are not deserving of the financial
gravy train that Olympic participation brings.

Be certain, I am NOT advocating any "special rights", I AM saying that
people who advocate denying people jobs or housing based on sex orientation
are dead WRONG!.

County officials publicly making bigotted statements and not being censured
for it, must be presumed to be speaking on behalf of the entire population.

> I had to state that to give most of you an overview of what is going on.
> ACOG has stated recently that " they are in the business of hosting and
> putting together the Olympic games, not getting involved in social issues".
> If that is the case, why did ACOG strip Cobb county of the planned
> volleyball venue there? Also Wayneboro, GA.(in south GA) was pressured in to
> caving in to ACOG, etc. because it's city was on part of the olympic torch
> relay route.

It was not due to a "small group of gay radicals".
It WAS due to a rather LARGE group, not entirely gay, but mostly very
levelheaded civil libertarians.

Members of this very list participated in the protest.

> Now USA gymnastics has decided to move the olympic men's gymnastic team out
> of Spartanburg, S.C. because word got out that some county commissioners
> "condemned the gay lifestyle". The men's team was scheduled to train there
> for ONE WEEK, July 3-12. Now all of a sudden, they have to move the team. In
> my view, all the teams should train the Atlanta area, site of the Olympics.
> There are plenty of facilites available to accomodate the men's, women's,
> and rhythmic teams.
>
> There are some people in Atlanta who are protesting the GA state flag. They
> say it is racist and should be removed. No one involved with the Olympics,
> ACOG, or otherwise has uttered a peep about the GA state flag and the
> protestors. Nor should they. ACOG, USOC, MAOGA, Coca-Cola, IBM, and every
> other group involved with the olympics should concern themselves with
> putting together the best games ever.

While the "stars & bars" are an uncomfortable reminder of past human rights
violations in the past of the USA. While the confederate flag flies in the
south, very few are speaking out in favor of returning african americans
to slavery. Indeed the rebel flag means a lot more than slavery, hence many
still fly it for sentimental reasons. The flag also reminds us not to let
others step on us. (North stepping on south STARTED the US Civil War)
I think squabbling over the flag is silly.

I can NOT condone the homophobic remarks being made in Cobb County.

> Not worry about the idiots
> commissioners in Cobb County, the state flag, the Postal Service and their
> stamp tee-shirts, or some nudie bar that wants open across the street from
> the COCA-COLA Centenial Olympic whatever park (not an Olympic venue, some
> rip-off tourist trap).
>
> I think the decision by USA gymnastics to move the US men's team out of
> Spartanburg was silly and uncalled for. These guys were VISITING Spartanburg
> ONE WEEK.

And making money off the team that week!
THAT is what was stripped from Spartanburg SC.

> Unless the men's team was gay, no one should have a problem with
> what a small fry like Spartanburg does, and what kind of business they see
> fit to tend to.

But bigots dont deserve the olympic money.

Fact is that there are many gay gymnasts.
Prolly a tad more than the usual percentage,
but not all male gymnasts are gay either!

> You don't schedule your vacation plans on what the local
> town's politics are.......do you?

Dont YOU ?
Organized campaigns like this (NOT heavily gay influenced) made a dramatic
difference in tourism to colorado.

I have deliberately sabotoged several attempts to put conventions
into Cincinatti OH.

> If that is the case, DON'T COME TO
> ATLANTA. We have enough garbage and nonsense going on here to scare away a
> lot of folks.

Compared to Cobb County, Atlanta is downright "Berkeley style liberal"

> ------------------------------

{...}

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:19:28 -0500
> From: ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
> Subject: Re: The U.S. men's team training in Spartanburg, S.C.
>
> Well I'm delighted that the US men's team has decided not to train in
> Spartanburg. As far as I'm concerned, the team shouldn't be spending it's
> dollars (food $, lodging $, etc.) on a city that "condemns the gay
> lifestyle."
>
> Garlfar, gay men, lesbians, and bisexual men and women make up 1/10 of the
> population. That means we are 1/10 of the gymnasts in the US. A city that

Actually among the guys gymnasts, its a bit higher than Kinsey's 10%, but
we are not ALL friends of Dorothy....

I was used to being called a fag
(because I was into computers not for any othre reason)
I resented my straight team mates getting called fag.

> condemned Italians or Jews or Irish people would be a lousy place to stay
> for a week, no? So why think differently about a city that condemns "the
> gay lifestyle?"
>
> Ilene, who wouldn't know she had a "lifestyle" if the news media didn't
> keep telling her so...
>
> ------------------------------

{...}

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:52:44 -0600
> From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
> Subject: Re: The U.S. men's team training in Spartanburg, S.C.
>
> By the same line of reasoning it would be okay for the US Gymnastics
> federation to have had their training camp in Bosnia prior to the
> 1992 Olympics. After all, no one on the team was a serb so it shouldn
> t matter?
>
>
> You have to wake up and except two things:
>
> 1) It isn't okay to hurt a small group of people (or just ignore the
> legalized hatred of them) just to satisfy others. Sooner or later you'll
> see that we're all just a bunch of little groups of people and one
> day the group your in will be 'condemned'.

"At first they came for the comunists and I said nothing because I wasnt
a comunist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I said nothing
because I wasnt a trade unionists. Then they came for the jews and I said
nothing because I wasnt a jew. Then they came for the catholics and I said
nothing because I wasnt a catholic. Then they came for me, and there was
no one left to speak up for me." -Rev Martin Niemoller

> 2) Anyone who thinks that the Olympic movement and the parties involved
> in it (local and federal) are not political should let me sell them land
> in the ocean for farming. If the USOC wasn't interested in local
> politics, then there wouldn't have been a 1980 boycott. If the IOC wasn't
> interested in politics, then the 2000 Games would have been in China or
> Istanbul, and if ACOG wasn't interested in politics, then the
> Games wouldn't have been pulled out from Cobb county.
>
> I, like few people on this list, have been to Cobb county and i know that
> even though you are in a county which borders Atlanta, you are in
> ANOTHER WORLD at times. I can't see why there are all the complaints,

SO TRUE !

> since it is so close to the other countys that the people that the
> people can easily travel to them and avoid the burden of millions
> of people coming into there towns and cities.
>
> As someone who used to live across the street from Georgia Tech (the
> Olympic Village), if I was still there, I'd like the peace and quiet.
>
> Jeff
>
> ------------------------------

People, take your bigotry somewhere else, OK ?

We have really ugly problems coming at us from the other side of the horizon
and franlkly hate mongering will just fragment us and prevent our standing
up against the coming battle in our future.


-texx

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Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 02:23:04 -0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: percentages and flamewars

Dean you are a nice guy, but your data is off a bit.
Last i knew, you are "normal" so now that Ive "outed myself"
lemmie handle the gay issues, fair nuff ?

Kinseys data was a bit skewed but his numbers werent too far off.
The census numbers were low because with Right wing in control of whitehouse
people were afraid to tell a govt agency what their orientation was.

Masters and Johnson are going to get more people to admit it because
people trust them more than the govt.

Now I propose we take this issue and split it.

If you want to argue Olympic comittee discretionary team relocations,
thats list topic stuff. This IS a sports list, right ?

If you want to argue Kinsey/Masters-Johnson stuff, lets take that private OK ?

Now chalk up and get back to work !

-texx

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 17 May 1996 to 18 May 1996
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