GYMN-L Digest - 16 Oct 1995 to 17 Oct 1995 - Special issue

There are 17 messages totalling 532 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Sorry, guys...THE BOOK (2)
  2. Worlds Report #1
  3. AA Comp.
  4. Miller's bar mistake (2)
  5. Romanian floor routine
  6. Hi, I am new.
  7. womens: where are they now?
  8. high school gymnastics
  9. music question
 10. purchasing a tramp & Free Gymnastics Book
 11. Kim Zmeskal (and other stuff)
 12. trampoline safety
 13. My post on THE BOOK
 14. Gina, Romania, and Posting
 15. GENERAL ARGUMENTS - Re: Romanians


Date:    Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:02:38 -0500
Subject: Sorry, guys...THE BOOK

Date sent:  16-OCT-1995 21:53:27

The subject heading says it all. If you don't want to hear what I am going
to say, fine, ignore this. But I think it bears hearing.

As much as we all like to grumble about what we read in this book, we
have to acknowledge one fact: this HAPPENED! Yes, we are only seeing
one side of the sport, but can we deny why Julissa Gomez broke her
neck, that athletes are pushed too hard, and in most cases, fall short?

I love the sport of gymnastics. Heck, I bashed my achilles tendon so badly
yesterday doing stuff in my dorm room for fun that I've ben on crutches
all day to keep off the ankle. Why? Because I love the grace and control
I feel. But just how much of what we see on television really portrays the
life of these athltes? Can anyone who has read this book look at what
Shannon Miller did last weekend in Sabae and tell me that they don't doubt
AT ALL, not one little bit, that just maybe her coaches had to convince
her to compete?

This book made me ract very strongly. It makes some valid points, although
I do NOT, repeat, do NOT, agree with the methods in which these facts were
presented. Nonetheless, can we really invalidate this book simply because
we don't like how Ryan presented her materail?

I'm going to end this with two comments, First, one on the book. When I
read about Kim Kelly, I cried. I still think what happened in 1992
regarding the selection sucked, plain and simple. Kelly is still affected
by it every day of her life, she says. Who are we to disbelieve her?

And, I leave you with this. Woodward and Bernstein (the two Washington
Post journalists who cracked Watergate wide open) have been critized wide
and far in many a journalism ethics class for their methods in obtaining
their information. yet, they are regarded as some of the most respected
for the fact that they DID crack the story...they got the job done.

Compare them to Joan Ryan and think on it for a while.


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 00:23:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Worlds Report #1

Billy wrote:
>-Bobrova-front on,RO FF layout,punch front immediate fish jump(wobble),double
>-Grosheva-front on,ff layout,tuck jump immediate chen,nice leaps,double
>-Kochetkova-she's so floaty-9.837
>-Khorkina-full twisting ff mount to 2 ff,handstand ff gainer full
>twisting ff,split leap
>immediate rulfova,cartwheel gainer double full(stick)-9.8
>-Prudneva-front on(fall),beautiful arms and leaps,front immediate fish

Just WHAT is a fish jump? Or an immediate fish jump?  What's it worth? ABC
neglected to show these routines -- I would've liked to have heard the
commentary on the fish jump by Bart.  ;^)

And what is meant by "she's so floaty"?  You mean her feet don't touch the beam?
Or you missed seeing the routine because she was so high up in the air?  8^o


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 00:25:05 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Comp.

Jeff wrote:
>As an aside: Anyone else notice that the gymnasts WEIGHTS was NOT shown on
>the screen each time they appeared on screen? Maybe someone out there is
>reading these posts.

Yes, I noticed too.  From what I caught (my roomie blew away the first
hour+ of my recording :.(  ), it was substituted by Bart & Kathy's comments
on various individuals' heights and weights.  We learned that Mo is now
4'7" and was 4'4" last year, for example.

I am curious as to Svet. Khorkina's height.  She looks like she's about
5'5", but who can tell from TV?

I also noticed too that the older girls,  Miller & Milosovici, in
particular, are swinging a lot slower on bars than they used to.  I
attribute Miller's problem on bars to this lack of momentum.  And the
commentators attributed this to her ANKLE injury!?!  Narf!


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 00:29:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Miller's bar mistake

Jennifer wrote:
>Can someone clarify just how much Shannon's break on bars cost her?

Not having judged for a couple of years, I'll take my best estimate:
 -0.5 for the fall (or 0.3 for an extra swing if you're feeling generous,
though I see it as "she may as well have jumped off & re-chalked; staying
on made no difference to the content and performance of the routine")
 -0.1 for the lost connection for bonus, I think

Then  -0.1 for overall monotony in rhythm (see my previous post) and maybe
-0.1 for the dismount (it looked scary and low).  So I would've given her a
9.20 which is in line with what she actually got, 9.3xx, I think.


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 01:09:59 -0400
Subject: Romanian floor routine

I happen to like Milosovici's floor routine.



Date:    Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:27:04 +0100
From:    ***@UNISERVE.COM
Subject: Hi, I am new.

Hi, my name is Mario.  I am just over the hill (40).  I am not directly involved
in gymnastic myself.  I have been training in martial arts since I was about
eight years old.  I really like watching motion oriented type of self
Dancing and gymnastic being one of them.  Well, make the story short, I have
a daughter (Rachel) who is crazy about rhythmic gymnastic, she is only
eight.  I would like to know if there is anybody else in this community that
is involved directly/indirectly in rhythmics.

Mario Lam    \O/   /\   (father of a young rhythmic gymnast)
              l    ll


Date:    Mon, 16 Oct 1995 23:40:52 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: womens: where are they now?

Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I think that..

Amy Scherr -- retired due to back problems.

Bruce -- went for a comeback, looked great making the Nat'l team in
'94, has called off the comeback, doing things like the Mall Tour now

Kalinina -- competed at the University Games in Japan in September
(right?  I seem to recall seeing her name in there)


Shaposhnikova: both Dominique Moceanu and Dawes have one in their
routine.  It is a transition move from the low bar to the hig bar.
For both of them, it is the first transition.  It's easy to identify
because the gymnast is stretched out, upside down.  Usually initiated
from a free-hip.  Moceanu immediately follows her Shap. with a layout
Pak salto back to the low bar.

Omelianchik is actually a back-hand with 3/4 turn, as that is what
Omelianchik did (according to others on Gymn, I'm not knowledgeable at
all about this), but in the Code, they've labeled a back 1/4 as an

Chen: a back tuck that opens in the air to swingdown to straddle the
beam.  In other words, a tucked Korbut, if you know what a Korbut is.

Markelov: many say this is a Tkatchev with 1/2 twist.  I think it's
easier to picture if you think of it as a front giant with a 1/2 twist
into the Tkatchev.

Thomas hop: a full-twisting hop over the bar.  Actually, I think in
the Women's Code it might be called a Chusovitina.  Kurt Thomas was
the first male to do it.



Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 03:26:11 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: high school gymnastics

I am into HS gymnastics quite a bit.  I have judged HS girls gymnastics for
10 years and now am the Technical Chair in Washington.  We use USAG Level 9
rules rather than those ancient National Federation rules.  Love to talk shop
with anybody about it.



Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 03:26:17 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Miller's bar mistake

>>Can someone clarify just how much Shannon's break on bars cost her?
> -0.5 for the fall (or 0.3 for an extra swing if you're feeling generous,

Shannon didn't fall, she only took an extra swing -0.3, a fall would put her
body on the ground or falling on to the apparatus.



Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:02:06 -0400
Subject: music question

Did we get an answer regarding the Kalinina music heard in the background
during the world broadcast (that someone else must have now) - we were
looking for the composer/title.  This is also the music that Natalia
Frolova used and also ice dancers Semanick/Gregory in 1988....


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:34:08 -0400
From:    ***@EAGLE.LHUP.EDU
Subject: Re: purchasing a tramp & Free Gymnastics Book

I seriously caution you about the use of privately owned trampolines.
Trampolines have been the home to some of the most dangerous and
crippling of accidents in this sport regardlesess of intention, skill and
equipment condition.  For a period of time, gyms couldn't even use their
because they couldn't get insurance for them.

If someone utilizes your tramp and injures themselves be ready for a
major lawsuit.  You risk losing your house, car, everything.  My advice
is to leave the bouncing at the gym where there are qualified instructors
and safety procedures follow.  In addition, they carry insurance for any


> Re: purchasing a tramp & Free Gymnastics Book
> I don't sell tramps but my friend Jennifer has a very good one in her yard
> called the Backyard Pro.  She can bounce really high--about 15 feet--and do
> double flips with twists and everything.  She is a diver.  I go over to her
> house sometimes and bounce and I can get really high on it, too, even though
> I'm not very good.  I can not do as hard tricks on it because Jenny is 17 and
> I am 14 and my interests are dance, gymnastics and cheerleading but I am not
> a trained diver like she is but I can still bounce really high, too.  Her
> Backyard Pro tramp is rectangular with a white mat that looks like it is some
> kind of woven net instead of solid black and says Backyard Pro High
> Performance on it with all kinds of warnings and the springs and other parts
> are stainless steel so they dont rust.  Her tramp is constructed with a thick
> padded spotting walkway around it on all 4 sides.   She taught me to do flips
> out in her yard by standing on that padded walkway built into her tramp with
> her sister Cindy standing on the opposite walkway and holding me in a belt
> until I could do the flips by myself without being held in a belt.  I can't
> do any tricks harder than front and back flips that Cindy and Jennifer taught
> me to do, so I am not an expert, but I know from my own experience that her
> Backyard Pro bounces better than any other tramp I've ever been on and a
> million times better than the round tramps that some of my other friends
> have.  Those round tramps really suck compared to Jennifer's Backyard Pro.
>      I got a really good book by Backyard Pro with lots of awesome tramp
> photos and great articles by World and Olympic trampoline and gymnastics
> champions on how to train on the Backyard Pro for gymnastics and other
> sports.  I got my copy from my friend Jenny but there is an address in the
> book where you can write for a free book and they could probably tell you
> where to buy the trampoline, too if you wanted one.  Their address is:
> Astraea, Inc.
> 1901 W. Main  St.
> St. Charles, IL 60174
> Phone (708) 584-2535
> Bye for now,
> Missy
> (I like getting gymnastics mail but writing it is harder :>  )


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:04:56 CST
Subject: Re: Kim Zmeskal (and other stuff)

     Ditto from me


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Kim Zmeskal (and other stuff)
Date:    10/16/95 11:14 AM

I know he has faults, but I'll always be a fan of Bela's.  The sport
wouldn't be the same without him.



Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:32:41 -0400
From:    ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Re: Sorry, guys...THE BOOK

        I think if Shannon Miller were asked privately who made her compete
you would get one reply.  Shannon Miller made her compete.  This is one
of the best things about her.  There are few gymnasts with a less
competitive drive.

        Just My Thought,
        Mikester Bee


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:31:18 BST
From:    ***@CS.BHAM.AC.UK
Subject: trampoline safety

I have emailed the 'potential buyer' directly with technical info about tramps
and stuff, however, I feel I must agree with Julie Fabsik-Swarts:


In England it has been common practice for some years now to have saftey crash
matts placed at bed level on the ends of trampolines, eg...

Top view -


Side view -

        |    | /   \ |   |
        |    |/     \|   |

where m= saftey landing mattress, about 1ft thickness high density foam
      t= trampoline

'Spotters', ie. people standing at the ends incase you fall, are *NOT* a safe

Trampolining without spotters on each exposed side of a trampoline and
trampolining without qualified supervision is risking your own health.

Finally, remember the two golden rules...

    15ft above the trampoline, ie. 20ft from the ground is considerable, and
    highly dangerous even for experienced performers.


Respect the above and you will never have a serious injury. Enjoy your bouncing.

                                'Nuff Said,

Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:45:34 -0500
Subject: Re: My post on THE BOOK

Date sent:  17-OCT-1995 08:42:51

Rachele mailed me this morning, and she pointed this out. I already
answered her, but I think I'd better put this on the list.

My musing about Shannon Miller was nothing more than that. What was
intended was to ask people to think about the possibility, given what is
pointed out in the book, that she was forced to compete. No, I do not think
that is what happened, but the possibility did run through my mind when
I read it. I just wondered if it did to anyone else.


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:50:14 -0400
From:    ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Gina, Romania, and Posting

        I personally try to keep my number of posts to a small number.
I am interested in what others have to say about different topics.  I
have to jump in on a couple things discussed recently.

        1. I might get some response on this one, but I personally
           like Gina Gogean.  I will say that she does little originality,
           but there is something to be said for going out and doing your
           job with little fanfare.  The idea that she receives high scores
           because of her name may be true to a point, but part of this
           has to do with the fact that she has a reputation for being
           consistent.  I believe she is not as bad as some people seem
           to think.

        2. Romania won the team for the same basic reasons.  They came out
           and hit their routines when they needed to.  Yes, I agree the
           Chinese women did many creative thingsbut made mistakes that
           cost them.  Team competition should be interesting in Atlanta.

        3. I just wanted to say I appreciate people posting relevent things.
           Personally, I don't have such a problem with "fluff" posts.  If
           I don't want to read it, I just delete and keep going.

        Just Some Thoughts,

        Mikester Bee


Date:    Tue, 17 Oct 1995 21:24:33 GMT
Subject: Re: GENERAL ARGUMENTS - Re: Romanians

>In a message dated 95-10-14 19:46:14 EDT, I wrote:
>>Greetings from Portugal, the nation who first denied Cristopher Colombo
>>from discovering America.
>>We now realise that Spain should have denied him too.

Then Esthing wrote me a private message:

>Ouch!  That hurts!  It's also funny. :D   (I hope you meant it to be, at
>least in part! :D )

I have decided to make my reply public to GYMN-L because it probably have
offended others too:

I do not wish to distinguish people between bad and good guys because
doing that would probably make me a bad guy.
I am not a judge or anything like it to judge others people opinions.
What happened is that I saw the Romenians getting flamed and I just felt
I would stand up for the roms.
Let's face it, we are talking about people who dont have nothing else
than gymnastics and are trying to do theirs jobs the most perfect and
professional they can.
Keep in mind that they dont have much reasons for smiling back home and
gymnastics is not the media show as it is in the USA.

I must say that as a citizien of the European Union I feel that Portugal
should be more open to the atlantic than to the Europen continent itself,
not just for historical reasons but indeed for its geographical position
and cultural tradition.
I dont find the American system an example, but I certainly appreciate
the American multi-racial society that is for sure what made the United
States of American the great nation that it is today.
I could extend myself on this subject, however this not the rigth forum
for doing that.

I just wish to apologise those who do not share the same atitude of who
wrote the Romenians offending message and ask these ones to express
themselves in a more polite way when refering to others feelings.

Greetings to all gymnasts worldwide.


End of GYMN-L Digest - 16 Oct 1995 to 17 Oct 1995 - Special issue