GYMN-L Digest - 11 Aug 1995 to 12 Aug 1995

There are 17 messages totalling 506 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. My updated WWW pages
2. Define "Great" (2)
3. Whoops...
4. body types
5. Psst! Free WWW space...
6. Autographs to trade
7. GREAT
8. New Home Page
9. MARY LOU (2)
10. Nationals
11. Campi autograph
12. Defining greatness
13. Defining greatness II
14. Greatness vs. Luck. (The topic that would never die!)
15. Third Anniversary

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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 20:11:56 -0700
From: ***@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: My updated WWW pages

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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 22:36:45 -0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: Define "Great"

>
> To All:
> Someone on here wrote that Mary Lou was not a "great" gymnast.
> Tell me, what defines a "great" gymnast?
> Just curious. It should be interesting to see how folks interpret that.
> I, personally, believe Mary Lou was a great gymnast because she not only
> had world class routines but also added that special "something," which in
> her case was her personality and charisma.
> Gymnastics is very much a subjective sport, and that charisma carried her
> part of the way.
> Is she any less of a gymnast because of that?
> I don't think so.
> --- Ronald

Scary but for once I am in total agreement with Ronald.....

Some of you might think that there were gymnasts who could have scored better
than she did. But you must admit, Russians there or not, she is the kinda
person youd love to have next door.


-texx

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 01:47:29 -0400
From: ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject: Whoops...

To all Teodora fans,
I made a mistake about what gym she's at. She's actually at World Cup
Gymnastics in Chappaqua, New York. I don't have a full address, but I'll try to
find it for those of you who asked. Hopefully I can get it by just calling
information...
The Romanian who's at American Gymnastics is Eugenia Golea, from the 1987
gold-medal-winning team in Rotterdam (plus the '88 Olympics and, I believe she
was also in '85 Worlds). I DO have the full address for this gym, so if there
are any Golea fans out there, I can help you out with no trouble. My apologies
to Teodora fans for the mix-up, but I'll do my best to get the address.

Beth

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 01:59:01 -0700
From: ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: body types

Round here we dont call gymnasts "chunky" unless they are VERY heavy.
When youy refer to MLR, perhaps a more apropos term would be what we call
out here in the wild west " muscle stump " meaning someone real strong
and real short at the same time. They just kinda explode out of the floor.

-texx

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 14:25:08 GMT
From: ***@ACHILLES.DEMON.CO.UK
Subject: Psst! Free WWW space...

The trouble with this message is that if someone *else* posted it, *I'd*
be sceptical. Anyway...

About a week ago a computer-wonk friend - one of the growing rabble I share
achilles with - tipped me the address of a site offering free homepages. I
don't know what their motives are - altruism they claim - but the bottom-line
is that you really can get 200k free space and all you have to do is apply.
So if anyone has been looking for a place to put up all those gymnastics
records/pics/etc - and yes, this *is* a hint what you should use that 200k
for - now's your chance. Just don't ask me to teach you html!

I hesitate to publish the contact-address here in the public forum: I don't
want to go down in 'net history as the person who got the site overloaded in
24 hours flat. But I'll e-mail it to anyone who's interested.

Frances

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:08:27 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Autographs to trade

Hi.
I have autographed pictures (from IG) of Okino and Zmeskal, and also
autographs of Grivich, Comenici, Conner, and Karolyi, if anyone is interested
in trading similar items. I would be interested if anyone has Strug, Dawes,
Moceanu, either Thompson, Powell, Borden, Miller, or Chow. If you are
interested, let me know and I'll tell you more specifically what I've got.
-Emily

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:45:55 -0400
From: ***@ZEUS.TOWSON.EDU
Subject: Re: Define "Great"

I want to agree with Ron, and Texx. Mary Lou's personality
is what made her so popular. Those of you who dislike Mary Lou should
try to look at this from a non-gymnastic point of view. To the
multitude of people watching the 84 Olympics her big smile and
bubbly personality is what was important. I agree that she would
have had a much more difficult time with the Soviets, and the other
Eastern Europeans. Mary Lou was lucky because of the boycott of
course, but she still had to produce which she did. Just my
thoughts.



> >
> > To All:
> > Someone on here wrote that Mary Lou was not a "great" gymnast.
> > Tell me, what defines a "great" gymnast?
> > Just curious. It should be interesting to see how folks interpret that.
> > I, personally, believe Mary Lou was a great gymnast because she not only
> > had world class routines but also added that special "something," which in
> > her case was her personality and charisma.
> > Gymnastics is very much a subjective sport, and that charisma carried
her
> > part of the way.
> > Is she any less of a gymnast because of that?
> > I don't think so.
> > --- Ronald Dupont Jr.
> > Port Charlotte, Florida
>
> Scary but for once I am in total agreement with Ronald.....
>
> Some of you might think that there were gymnasts who could have scored better
> than she did. But you must admit, Russians there or not, she is the kinda
> person youd love to have next door.
>
>
> -texx
>

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 09:00:22 -0700
From: ***@GOODNET.COM
Subject: GREAT

Personally I think that a gymnast is only "great" if he/she not only excells
in the technical and artistic part of gymnastics but the drawing in of the
crowd (charimatic). If the gymnast is missing _any_ of these qualities then
he/she is not great. This gymnast may be entertaining but _not_ great!!Mary
Lou is in my opinion missing the artistic part of the formula; thus, she is
_not_ great.
Who is great?

Lavinia Milosovici
Aurelia Dobre
Teodora Ungureanu
Nadia
Svetlana Khorkina
Svetlana Boginskaya
Elena Shushunova
Olga Korbut
Cathy Rigby
Diane Durham
Li Li


Bart Conner
Valery Scherbo
Ivan Ivankov
Kurt Thomas


My reasons are self-explanatory when you watch them. I know there are more
but there is only so much room. There are also many extremely good gymnasts
(i.e. Shannon Miller and Kim Zmeskal) but they haven't yet made the ultimate
GREAT list.


Christine

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 12:33:58 -0400
From: ***@AMANDA.DORSAI.ORG
Subject: New Home Page

Well it's finally up and running. I've now got a home page up on the Web,
with links to gymn, and other gymnastics files.

The url:
http://www.dorsai.org/~kenach

That should work, if not, add /index.html

Check it out!

Ken

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 14:11:51 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: MARY LOU

All this talk about her being a great gymnasts should really be about her
being one of the luckiest gymnasts on earth. She had an opportunity that
was GIVEN to her and she took advantage of it. Szabo kicked her as* in AA
finals, but came up short because of the 0.5 deduction in team optionals
for the double tuck to all fours off UB. Mary Lou also was wise to
NOT compete against the best in Montreal. After all, she could have gone the
same sad fate as Debbie Thomas did (1st to way down the list a year later).


All this talk about Olympic Champs, I would say that its safe to say that
Yelena Davidova ('80 champ- remember her?) also was lucky that several
other gymnasts broke on a few events. The 1980 and 1984 Olympics, unlike
1976 were not won by the ebst gymnast at the time, but the one who didn't
make mistakes during the meet. If you call that being great, then I would
beg to differ with you.

Jeff

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 12:29:39 -0700
From: ***@GOODNET.COM
Subject: Nationals

If possible, could someone going to the Nationals watch for a gymnast from
Austin, Texas, Ashley Kever. She should be in Seniors but I am not positive.
I would love to know how she did. Thanks.

Christine

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 23:37:28 +0000
From: ***@TPONE.TELEPAC.PT
Subject: Re: MARY LOU

>All this talk about Olympic Champs, I would say that its safe to say that
>Yelena Davidova ('80 champ- remember her?) also was lucky that several
>other gymnasts broke on a few events. The 1980 and 1984 Olympics, unlike
>1976 were not won by the ebst gymnast at the time, but the one who didn't
>make mistakes during the meet. If you call that being great, then I would
>beg to differ with you.
>
>Jeff


You made your point on about being just LUCKY and not GREAT.

Let me remind you Nadia versus Teodora.

If Teodora was a GREAT and UNLUCKY for competing with Nadia Comaneci, then
how do feel about Nadia Comaneci? Is she as GREAT as Teodora?
Or just LUCKY for her coach had choosen her in Paris instead of Teodora?

Do you think publicity have killed gymnastics or instead have improved it
in other way?

Does publicity shows gymnastics itself or just the personality and charisma
of the gymnasts?


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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 14:52:03 -0700
From: ***@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: Campi autograph

I wrote to Michelle Campi a while ago and I got 2 autographs of her. I
want to keep one but if anyone is interested in trading me someone's
autograph for hers I will be happy to. It is a xeroxed picture but she
signed it in silver pen and it is awesome. E-mail me soon if you are
interested. Thanks :)


Margi :)

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 17:20:27 CDT
From: ***@UA1VM.UA.EDU
Subject: Defining greatness

This is my opinion. I think greatness depends on the time period in which
the gymnast competed. For example, Larissa Latynina competed from 1954-1966!
During this time she had two children!!!!!!!!! and still kept competing. She
is great in my book for her sheer longevity and consistency in the sport. In
1989 The Soviets and Bulgarians were on an exhibition tour and passed through
Illinois. The announcer started to describe her and I got on my feet and gave
her a one-woman standing ovation. Remember competitive gymnastics did not be-
come a sport for women until 1952. The uneven bars weren't incorporated into
competition until the 1954 Worlds?!(I am not sure of my info, could an older
gymn reader verify?) When Latynina competed there was not as many people doing
gymnastics and the degree of difficulty was much lower. To me she is great
because of her courage to compete in a time when women were not encouraged to
do sports and also her remarkable consistency over such a long time period.
Vera Caslavska is great to me for her consistency and elegance she brought to
gymnastics. I also admire her courage for standing up for her country after the
USSR invaded in 1968. I admire Olga Korbut for several reasons. One, she
introduced new tricks back somi on beam.(Thies was the first to do, but
Korbut got more notoriety) and Korbut flip on bars. One of the reasons
gymnastics originally became so popular was due to her smiling personality and
show of emotion after blowing her bars routine and losing the all-around title.
People could see her as human. Even though Tourischeva won more titles and
really dominated the sport in this period, Korbut was noticed more. She is
great because of the way she helped get public attention on gymnastics.
Enough for now BLM

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 17:38:08 CDT
From: ***@UA1VM.UA.EDU
Subject: Defining greatness II

IMO Comaneci is very high on my list of greats. IF you look at the ABC
videotaped highlights of the '72 and '76 Olympics. There is no comparison
for difficulty. To me Comaneci marks the start of the evolution of gymnastics
as we know it today. Looking back at her routines, to me she was on a another
planet as far as the degree of difficulty and sheer technical perfection with
which she executed her routines. You may be able to argue that there is no such
as perfection, but to me her routines are so polished and above the others in
execution and degree of difficulty, that the scores of ten were well-justified.
Nelli Kim was also great to me because of her vaulting(first woman to throw a
fulll-twisting Tsukahara), her personality(as a child I was mesmerized and
enjoyed the fact that she seemed to always give her interviews in English
and even did commentary in English for the Spartakiade!) and her elegance
and strength in tumbling on floor exercise. Also, Ungureanu was important
and I find Karolyi's comment that Nadia had all of the luck and that things
might have been different if Ungureanu could have had some earlier exposure,
that he thought she had even more potential than Comaneci.(This comes from
Mary Lou's biography, where Karolyi talks about his defection to the US.)
Enough for now.

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 19:51:14 -0600
From: ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Greatness vs. Luck. (The topic that would never die!)

After I pointed out the difference of luck vs. greatness, someone commented
that it is the media which makes a gymnast great. This I believe is
true. I think that the media was trying to make Zmeskal great (she was
good- or is that IS GOOD!) but when she faultered in Barcelona, they tore
her apart. She couldn't live up the image of what she was suppose to
be instead of what she was: human. AS for Teadora U. and her problems
with 1976 and Nadia's fame, I agree. She will go down as one of the
most underated gymnasts in history. Because we only remember Nadia, we
don't remember "Hey- she stood on that podium in second place on Beam,
ahead of Olga". I don't know much about her career so as to say if she
would have been a "great gymnast", but I will say she was underated.


I don't think Nadia was a "great gymnast" in 1976. I think she was great in
1979. Here's why. First, what she did in 1976 was FLAWED and was given 10s.
She hopped on the hecht off the low bar and was given a 10. There was
no need for that. She could have won with 9.90s or 9.95s if everyone else
was judged fairly was well. They was too much "high scoring", which
only served to devalue the efforts of the gymnasts. (If a hop on a
handsrping front gets a 9.95, why throw a harder vault and risk a
deduction for execution errors?"

The ONLY time she showed greatness was in Fort Worth. When she competed
Optional beam for her team, there was no AA, no event final, nothing for
her to gain out of the routine. She did it because her team needed her,
and she performed as required. I think it was that unselfish act that made
me like her alot. Otherwise, I think she was over rated at times and flawed.
She tended to get by on her reputation and not on what she was doing
at the time. (Example: FX in Strasbourg, FX in Moscow, the entire 1981
World University Games.)

Flame me if you must, but I call it like "I" see it.



Jeff

P.S. Anyone know what was the reason why Mary LOu did not compete in
Budapest '83?

P.S.S. Anyone know what happened to Emelia Eberle?

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 20:43:07 -0600
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Third Anniversary

12 Aug 1995

Happy Birthday to Gymn! Three years ago, Robyn and I started the Gymn
mailing list. Gymn is doing great and I wanted to thank some people
who have contributed to the growth of this list, directly and
indirectly. I probably shouldn't compile a list of people because I
will inevitably leave someone out... when you see how many I include,
you'll understand why it's impossible to ever complete the list.

T H A N K S T O...

Zoran M, who emailed me my first message of gymnastics, EVER,
before Gymn was even an idea. (He had wanted the NCAA rankings.)

Dan B, who assisted us in getting an ftp/gopher site and also a
listserv at Penn State.

Lynn C and Toby R, two of the original Gymners who gave us
the low-down on being a "gym parent". Other long-time Gymners too,
such as Helena and Ken R, Chops, Steve C, (and many more!)
who helped to get the ball rolling.

Karen, Dory, Sherwin, Michelle, David
(Chinahand) who have kept us up-to-date on gymnastics news from their
countries. Elizabeth, Susan (and several others!) for
keeping us so well informed with information from the former Soviet
nations. (Susan, in particular, not only for keeping things "lively"
but also providing us with so much gymnastics information, period.)

Mayland, who has kept us well informed of the USA men's
collegiate gymnastics situation and has worked on some awewomse,
soon-to-be-debuting artwork for the Gymn WWW pages.

Mara, Efton, John, Anil and other Gymn
volunteers. Mara has put together some outstanding Trivia sets, and
Efton and now John have done an excellent job of maintaining the Gymn
calendar. Anil, who manages our intros file, is about to get married!
Congrats Anil!

Ken, Bruce, and Adriana "Gimnasta", who often
serve as the "Gymn judges" (both on and off the forum). As one Gymner
said to me, "Where would we be without Adriana and her patient
explanations??"

Randy, who was the first Gymner ever to be credentialed for a
gymnastics meet (1993 NCAA Nationals) and offer "interactive
reporting" to Gymn members.

USA Gymnastics' Public Relations, for giving Gymn access to meet
scores, interviews, athlete bios, and other information. And
particularly Steve Whitlock, USAGO! sysop, who has always been
supportive of Gymn and so willing to share electronic information.

Debbie, who has long been a great source of information for Gymn (thus
leading to her "Gymn Historian" role) and is now the list
administrator. She is also the Gymn photographer and hosts the Gymn
images (.gifs and .jpegs) ftp site. She and I worked together on the
FAQ and she is going to fix it up some before posting the first draft
for revisions -- so thanks to her for that too (particularly for being
so patient with me!).

Robyn, without whom this list never have started! We hope everything
is going well with you, your family (Hi Ryan), and (sorta new) job.

George (aka "Guru"), asst forum manager, who has been reporting on
gymnastics meets for Gymn since forever (well, I think it began with
1993 World University Games...). Also, thanks to George for always
buying me a t-shirt when he goes to a meet. ;)

Rachele

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 11 Aug 1995 to 12 Aug 1995
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