GYMN-L Digest - 7 Apr 1996 to 8 Apr 1996

There are 17 messages totalling 631 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Vault at the Budget Dual
  2. Shannon Miller
  3. Judging
  4. Judges payments. WAG (2)
  5. Judges' payments
  6. Wild Rose  -- Edmonton --
  7. judges
  8. L5-10 Fundraising
  9. change of address for magazine sub.
 10. GYMN-L Collegiate Update V. 1, no. 26
 11. NY Times article on Nadia and Bart
 12. Recent Notes and Responses to Garlfar
 13. Stormy Eaton
 14. USSR team today
 15. Summer Fare War (fwd)
 16. Olympic Tickets


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 05:13:00 MDT
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Vault at the Budget Dual

There was enough room for the vault.  They had it set up during practices,
and the gymnasts used it.  On Saturday morning they pulled it down.



Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:30:39 -0500
From:    ***@CIC.NCHE.EDU
Subject: Shannon Miller

Speaking of gymnasts in advertisements, Shannon Miller is pictured in
the latest Avon booklet along with a few other female athletes.


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:29:15 -0400
From:    ***@EAGLE.LHUP.EDU
Subject: Re: Judging

I have been judging for almost two decades and have never seen a judge
consciously judge a team or athlete unfairly.  Mistakes have been made
but after all, judges are human.

>From personal experience, when I have been forced into judging as an
affiliated judge I tend to go the extreme of judging my athletes harder
than the average judge.  I think this tends to be the norm.

Finally, it should be noted that under sanction rules, no affiliated
judge can be a head judge.


> This has happened to my daughter (L5) also.  Although I personally
> know that this judge/coach tends to judge girls she coaches harder
> than girls from other teams,  I do believe that this is a conflict of
> interest and should not be allowed.
> In the case of my daughter, the judge was a former coach of hers from
> another gym, but her own girls were there competing.  She
> consistently scored them .2 to .3 lower than others.  When my
> daughters turn was up I told one of the parents from her new gym to
> watch the scoring for my daughter.  Sure enough she was scored approx.
>  .2 to .3 lower because the judge knew her. (This particular judge
> does not want parents to think she is favoring girls she has coached.
> )  This is as unfair as Bethany's problem with girls being overscored.
> Is there anyway that judge/coaches can be barred from judging at
> meets their girls compete at?  I don't know, but I think they should
> not be allowed to.
> Just my $.02 worth
> Linda


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:34:52 -0400
From:    ***@EAGLE.LHUP.EDU
Subject: Re: Judges payments. WAG

The amount of time and money spent studying, traveling to clinics (10
credit hours per year) and weekends that are non existent make judging a
mediocre paying secondary income at best.  Every year I do my taxes and
find myself in the red.  I continue to judge because I love the sport and
this is my way of giving back to it.  Just my two cents worth.


> Payment to judges in the USA can be quite lucrative depending on your rating.
>  You are paid a minimum of 2 hours per meet and your hourly fee is based upon
> your rating.  The higher your rating, the more you receive per hour.  As a
> level 10 judge I receive $21.00 per hour.  We receive payment for our total
> mileage less 30 miles and if we judge for longer than 3 hours or travel for
> more than 100 miles round trip we receive $10.00 for meals.  Being that I
> live a large geographically spread state, I will rarely get under $50 for any
> meet I judge.  I have heard that in Canada, like New Zealand the judges do it
> all by volunteer.
> While I feel we put in a great deal of effort and time for this sport I am
> not convinced that we should be paid so handsomely for it.  Personnally I
> would be happy with just my expenses covered.  However, then once left up to
> volunteer judges, we may not have people who are as dedicated because they
> are getting something for their efforts.  Also, to be quite honest, I do
> think of the money sometimes when I am dragging my tired butt out to my
> fourth high school meet in a week and then I have a four session club meet on
> the weekend and a junior high school meet on Monday only to have (maybe) a
> day off before it starts again for the next week.
> Dean


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:24:43 CST
From:    ***@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Judges' payments

Some additional comments to add to Avril's & Dean's:

I had heard that the Australians also were not paid for judging.  We had a
young Austrailian girl visiting here for awhile who was amazed we are paid
to judge.

At one point in the US, no one got paid for judging.  I remember the days
when each judge brought a parent, and the parents judged.  They were
THRILLED if someone brought in lunch for them.

It has grown to be very professional now, and I disagree with Dean's
statements that we should not be paid so well.  Why?  We are still
stuggling in my state and region (MN and Region 4--which along with Region
2 is a small region numbers-wise) to get enough judges.  It's a typical
economic supply and demand problem.  It is difficult to get people to give
up their free time on evenings and weekends to judge.  The money helps, but
what Dean neglected to discuss is the requirements and out-of-pocket
expenses required to be a judge.  Also, a lot of people don't want the
"hassle" of being an official and being constantly critized for their work.

Women's judges here in the U.S. are paid based on rating for USGF
competitions.  The colleges each have their own systems, and range from
about $50 to $150 a meet.  The hourly payment for USGF judges is as follows:

Level 5:      $10          Level 9:   $18
Level 6-7:    $12          Level 10:  $21
Level 8:      $15          Elite:     $23
Level 6-7-8:  $16          Brevet:    $25

However, judges are paid only for the hours judged (not for break times),
so while they may be away from home 10 or 12 hours, they may be paid for
only 6 or 7 hours.

Personally, my out-of-pocket expenses run about $3000 or more a year to be
a Brevet judge.  This includes books, safety certification, attendance at
clinics such as Congress, attendance at my own expense to state and
regional clinics where I'm expected to volunteer my time for the good of
the sport, purchase of videotapes for studying etc.  Plus, as a sole
proprietor I must pay BOTH halves of the Social Security tax, plus the
normal Federal and state taxes on my earnings.  Bottom line--it sounds like
we make a lot of money, but it is only supplemental income for most judges
and I know of no one who makes it a full-time job.  It's just not possible.

BTW, what do the men's officials make?



Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:35:38 -0600
From:    ***@SUPERNET.AB.CA
Subject: Wild Rose  -- Edmonton --

Hi there.  I went to the competition that was in my home town Edmonton.
What a nice competition.

I must say that I only went to the last day unfortunately.  But we say
little 15 year old UKR Victoria K.  She was wonderful.  She did full twist'n
double layout off bars.  She did a neat move a standing back flip with 1/2
twist on beam landing forward of course.  She did a full in off beam I belive.

Her floor was amazing.  She did for an opener, a RO, BH, arabian double
front and then immediate punch front.  Amazing.  But I thought she was great.

The sad part.

She fell off the beam and he coach ignored her and she just sat in the
corner and cried her eyes out.  She won 3 gold medals each one for the other
events V, bar, floor.  She also won the all-round the day before and this
coach has the right to treat her this way????

I got her autograph along with Marleen Lavorie and Abby Person.  When I went
to get Victoria's autograph, I gave her a hug and told her she did a great
job.  She sort of smiled.  But where does these coaches get off?



Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:46:24 -0500
From:    ***@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU
Subject: judges

What is the difference between a brevet and an elite judge? I would have
thought that an elite judge would have been the highest paid?


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:44:39 -0600
From:    ***@CSN.NET
Subject: L5-10 Fundraising

This is going to ramble.  Sorry.

My daughter's gym is sending 6 out of their 10 optional gymnasts to
regionals.  The kids worked hard and have done very well but we're now faced
with the results of poor planning and disagreement among the parents on how
to raise funds.

We've just had the fourth fundraiser of the season--a carwash.  Since we're
a Parks & Rec department, the town really supported us and the kids got to
wash over 100 cars in six hours (okay, a lot of parents helped out.)  They
raised over $500 and washed a heck of a lot of 15 passenger vans.

We've also done a cartwheelathon, a bowlathon and the state compulsory meet.
 All have brought in relatively small amounts of money.

Last year, we decided to go for bingo, which in the state of Colorado is
limited to non-profits.  Okay, we've got our 501 (c) (3) designation, which
makes it okay.  But we've had too few parents for critical mass since
approval.  Bingo, done the max (105?) times per year, routinely raises
$100,000+ for gym groups here.  And it's a lot less hassle than organizing
the fundraiser-of-the-month club although it requires commitment and regular

We also do ongoing fundraisers of leo sales and other gymnastics
paraphernalia (if anyone wants a *great* deal on plaid boxers with a girls
gymnastics logo --, please email me for details--our loss (ordered too many
but they sell really well) can be your gain!).

My point?  It's much more valuable for parents to work together and come up
with fundraisers that make sense economically than to spend a lot of energy
making a couple of hundred buck with a bake sale or similar venture.  It's
worth spending a year or two building a cohesive parents group united by
common interest.

The car wash, incidentally, was a *great* bonding experience for gymnasts,
parents and coaches, although it did have its (humorous) downside.  When our
fourteen and fifteen year olds started getting too hot in the warm sun, they
stripped to workout tops.  We really started getting in cars being driven by
16 - 18 year old young men.  Some of those vehicles had, truly, never been
washed before.  (They almost brought in a bus, too--but the dads nixed it.)
They'll be in pain at workout today, though.  Not enough sunscreen to go
around.  But probably the best group fundraiser they've ever participated
in--everybody did their part and it was for a good cause.




Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:04:47 -0500
Subject: change of address for magazine sub.

could someone tell me how to get a hold of USA Gymnastics so I can give
them my change of address.  the magazine only mentions mailing in a
request, but I need something quicker, like an e-mail address or a phone
#.  also, I have not received my April issue of International Gymnast.
Does anyone know a # I can call to talk to them about it?  I have always
received my issues prior to the actual month the issue is for.  Who's on
the cover and what are some of the highlights.  Thanks in advance!



Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:51:48 -0700
Subject: GYMN-L Collegiate Update V. 1, no. 26

                      GYMN-L's Collegiate Update
                           Volume 1, no. 26
                             Apr. 8, 1996


1. SEC Championships (W)
2. NCAA Picks Contest


    *****Item number 1.26.1*****

From: ***
Date:          Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:33:17 CDT
Subject:       SEC Championships (W)

SEC Championships
Lexingtion, Kentucky

Team Results:
1.  Georgia    197.45
2.  Alabama    196.95
3.  Florida    195.65
4.  Kentucky   195.25
5.  LSU        193.15
6.  Auburn     191.15

1.  Lori Strong    UGA  39.575
2.  Kim Kelly      UA   39.50
2.  Kristen Guise  UF   39.50

1.  Leah Brown      UGA  9.975
1.  Jenny Hansen    UK   9.95
1.  Jenni Beathard  UGA  9.925
1.  Hansen          UK   9.95
1.  Kim Kelly       UA
1.  Leslie Angeles  UGA
1.  Leah Brown      UGA

Highlights:  All the top gymnasts in the all-around had a break.  Lori
Strong broke on her 2nd hop full on bars, severe knee bends, but managed
to complete her Tkatchev for a 9.8.  Kim Kelly and Kristen Guise didn't
stick good vaults, either of them could have one the all-around with a
better vault.  Meredith Willard of UA broke on beam and vault.  Leah Brown
fell on her double front dismount off bars, she had a good chance of
winning AA also.  Jenny Hansen fell on her piked Jaeger and failed to make
the top 6 AA.

Alabama opened on beam and rocked while Georgia opened on vault, without
any service from Karin Lichey on any event, and faultered slightly.
Georgia managed a 49.3xx on that event, where they are used to scoring
around a 49.6.  Alabama went to floor and hit again with a 49.45 while
Georgia went to bars and had a fall and a minor break.  The 3rd rotation
saw Bama lose valuable points as only 2 gymnasts stuck their vaults,
Merritt Booth and Marna Neubauer.  They totalled a 48.775.  This event
decided their fate.  It would have been extremely close at the end if Bama
would have stuck.  They are used to scoring somewhere between 49.1 and
49.3, so, add those .5 points back.  (Supplemental note by Shawn: Alabama
scored a 49.1x on vault, not a 48.775.  The scoreboard at the meet must
have flashed wrong.)  Georgia ended on floor, having the Olympic rotation
and nailed every routine.

The great surprise of the meet was Kentucky finishing 4th.  They were
absolutely great.  Jenny Hansen is throwing the same tumbling and beam.
She attempted her front full for her second vault but landed on her seat.
Look for Kentucky at Nationals.  Beam rocked LSU out of the meet while
Auburn managed to place Becky Erwin for a tie for second place on beam.
Three or 4 Auburn gymnasts either fell or broke big time on their last
event, bars.  Erin Gannon and Erwin are ones to watch.  Hopefully they
will qualify for Nationals!?!?!


    *****Item number 1.26.2*****

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:16:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NCAA Picks Contest

I am running a contest, sorry, no prizes, but I'll announce the results
after regionals. I want everyone's 12 picks as to which teams will
qualify to nationals and their seeds. (ie 1) Georgia 2) Michigan, etc).
Please remember that the Northeast region gets an automatic bid, so
don't forget to seed one of their teams. All picks must be received
by Friday at midnight, American EST. I'll try and get the results out
as soon as I know regional results.

<***Editor's note: Although not specified, my guess is that this is
women's only.>


  The "GYMN-L Collegiate Update" is a twice-weekly collection of news on the
collegiate gymnastics scene.  Back issues may be found on the Web at
HTTP:// or by anonymous FTP to (directory /pub/gymn/Collegiate-Update).
  To make a submission to the _GYMN-L Collegiate Update_, send email to

*** (NOT directly to the GYMN-L list) with
"Collegiate Update" or "GCU" in the subject header.
  Please send any replies, comments, or suggestions to the same address.


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:51:08 -0400
From:    ***@HICOM.NET
Subject: Re: NY Times article on Nadia and Bart

Howdy, GYMNers:

>>Today's (Friday, 4/5/96) NY Times has an article about Bart Conner and Nadia
Comaneci and their upcoming wedding(three weeks away, with highlights the next
day on ABC's Wide World of Sports).  The article discusses how after meeting at
the American Cup in 1976, they didn't really cross paths again until after Nadia
defected. Then Bart talked himself onto the "Pat Sajak" show when Nadia was to
be interviewed, sensed she was afraid of Panait (the man who'd help her defect),
and arranged for her to leave Panait and move to Canada. After a year as "phone
pals," they began making appearances together, and the friendship eventually
grew into a romance.

I thought they got married [I want to say, "in Romania"] around last March or
April or May?  Around that time last year I remember a big TV special about
Nadia's first homecoming to Romania since her defection, and that she brought
Bart there as well?

Am I losing it?



Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:33:41 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Recent Notes and Responses to Garlfar

To Quote the most venerable Sgt. Friday, "Just the facts mam."  The rest is
entertainment, smoke and tangential statements regarding what may or may not
be.  Fun to read, best to stay away from, which is what I will do regarding
this issue from here on.


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:34:36 -0700
From:    ***@ASU.EDU
Subject: Stormy Eaton

        Stormy Eaton died about a year ago in a plane crash.  His
girlfriend (whom he was going to marry) survived the crash.  He is
greatly missed.



Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:56:46 -0700
From:    ***@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU
Subject: Re: USSR team today

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, No Name wrote:

> I think the most likely team for the women would be:
> Lilia Podkopayeva
> Svetlana Khorkina
> Dina Kochetkova
> Oksana Fabrichnova
> Rosa Galieva
> Svetlana Boginskaya
> Elena Piskun
> alt: Oksana Chutsovitina
> another possibility would be Elena Grosheva.
        I'm salivating just thinking about this team!

> Now I have a question:  do you think this team would be strong enough to beat
> the Romanians and the Chinese?
        Yah... even with a couple of line-up changes due to injury...
the change I would make is move bogie to alternate and move Chusovitina
up to the team. I love Bogie, she should keep doing gymnastics if she
keeps looking so darn fabulous, but Chusovitina has been doing really
well lately in competitions. :)



Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:15:25 -0500
From:    ***@CARLETON.EDU
Subject: Summer Fare War (fwd)

Someone asked about reduced fairs to Atlanta and I thought this might be
of interest ... Also depending on where you live you might want to see if
Valujet flies.  It's one of the discount airlines and I know Atlanta is
one of it's hubs.  Also check out if Southwest flies there.  Basically
it's a good idea to find out which airlines fly out of your city or ones
nearby and look for the non "brand name" ones.  I tend to have a good
knowledge of what flies where (a really weird hobby of mine) so if anyone
has anymore questions let me know.  Oh also check out agencies on the
web.  Sometimes they sell tickets cheap.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 13:24:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Summer Fare War



Save up to 50% on airline tickets  from  5/1/96 to 9/9/96.

Tickets must be purchased by April 12, 1996.

Save an additional 7% by making your own reservation.

Visit the Traveler's Net web site at
or phone 1 800 711-3935  Mon-Fri  9am-4pm EDT.

To earn an additional 7% rebate on your tickets .


Date:    Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:26:49 -0600
From:    ***@CSN.NET
Subject: Olympic Tickets

Following up on Megan's post:

Today's Wall Street Journal says that airline seatrs, lodging, even tickets
are very available.  Delta hasn't sold more than 40% of its seats into
Atlanta on any day of, or surrounding, the Games and has stopped requiring a
Sat. night stay for discount fares plus offering 2 for ones from 23
Southeast markets.  Hundreds of hotel rooms remain available...

Gymnastics tickets remain available -- not sure if this is just podium
training, the rest of the article implies that tickets that had been tied up
for corporations are now available.

names to try:

FJB Corp. - housing and hospitality service

International Sports Events, Inc. has leased millions of dollars worth of
accommodations but has 600 rooms yet to be booked.  Pakcagees for 4 days and
3 nights, including lodging, transportation, meals and other amenities,
start at $1,350 per person.

Private Housing 1996 Inc. (this will get you into people's homes.  Asking
prices have dropped 50% from previous expectations)

Creative Travel Services, Inc.--also can get private homes, B & Bs, condos, etc.

Best luck to those who want to make Olympic arrangements.


No, we're not going but I wanted you all to know about the improved
opportunities here.


Date:    Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:55:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Judges payments. WAG

> I have heard that in Canada, like New Zealand the judges do it
>all by volunteer.

Canadian figure skating judges don't get paid at all (though they get very
well-fed),; however gymnastics judges do get some remuneration.

It seems like volunteer around here, but we do get judging honourariums and
mileage expenses re-imbursed.  There are no salary judging positions.  All
committee and sub-committee work is volunteer work.

This year, as a level 3 Ontario Women's Artistic judge, I get  $52 for a
full day meet (4-8 hours) or $78 for a 1.5 day meet (8-12 hours, >80
gymnasts).  Mileage  is $0.20 per km, and if you don't travel with other
judges you are basically crucified.   I judged a couple of invitationals in
Quebec before my re-instatement and got $9 per hour.

Regardless of what level of athletes you judge, you get paid the same rate
according to your judging level.  So I could, theoretically,  judge a
day-full of handspring vaults or chief judge FIG III bars and get the same
$$$.  Had I not have had to go through re-instatement and all that messy
stuff, I'd be a level 6 Ontario or National 2 judge which gets $69 (full
day), $104 (1.5 day).

We hafta pay for an annual maintenance clinic, new Code, Code Supplements,
judging policy manuals, provincial stream technical regulations, and donuts
each autumn.  Judges who go for National upgrading hafta spend a whole week
a Nationals, usually at their own expense -- and many of them are teachers.
It's not a happy situation.

More grief:  $1Cdn = about $0.72 US.

There are less levels in men's judging in Ontario, but the honourarium
scale is the same.  Tramp & tumbling judges get $40 (full day), $60 (1.5
day), regardless of level.  There are 7 RSG judging levels ranging from $43
to 68 per meet.  The Sport Aerobics rates haven't been published yet
because there's only like 1 (or 2?) judges.




End of GYMN-L Digest - 8 Apr 1996 to 9 Apr 1996 - Special issue