GYMN-L Digest - 5 Apr 1996 to 6 Apr 1996

There are 13 messages totalling 604 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Still looking for state of origin (USSR)
  2. tv/lay article "truth"
  3. Kim Zmeskal
  4. W-A-G Hindorff & Desert Devils
  5. Onodi
  6. intro
  7. Nadia Comaneche (2)
  8. GYMN-L Digest - 5 Apr 1996 - Special issue (3)
  9. WAG: Khorkina
 10. Questions


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 22:45:33 +1000
From:    ***@JCU.EDU.AU
Subject: Still looking for state of origin (USSR)

Can anyone help with these Soviet gymnasts...ethnicity or ciizenship!!
Svetlana Agapova        Oksana Aibinder         Irina Autienieva
Sveta Avdeeva           Anaida Babasian         Jelene Belkina
Lubov Bogdanova         Irina Breigina          Tatiana Chernova
Olga Chudina            Nina Dronova            Zinaida Druginina
Olga Fiflimonova        Antonia Glebova         Elena Glentshenko
Galina Glutchenko       Tatiana Godenko         Tatiana Gontshenko
Natalia Gribova         Maria Goryunova         Zulfia Hairova
Elena Ignatova          Oksana Iliana           Galina Ionas
Svetlana Ivanova        Julia Jankoskaya        Alla Janscenko
Karligash Kaliyeva      Natalia Karamuschka     Oksana Karrasova
Tatiana Kondratova      Ludmila Kotova          Olga Koval (Rus?)
Lidia Kovalenko         Olga Krapchatova        Nadezha Kuvavkina
Svetlana Lebedinskaya   Elena Levotschkina      Marina Mahmutova
Tamara Manina           Elena Milovanova        Svetlana Mironova
Elena Mitrofanova       Oksana Nikiforova       Elena Nickolaetscheva
Oksana Nickolaeyeva     Natalia Novozhilova     Elena Polevaya
Elena Ponomarenko       Elena Prusova           Elena Rachmanova
Marina Razinkova        Svetlana Roelikova      Ekaterina Sacharova
Elena Safonova          Angelica Schennikova    Valeria Schidunova
Valentina Sckoda        Olga Shugayeva          Natalia Sidlova
Svetlana Smirnova       Regina Starodub         Natalia Stepanova
Natasa Tarica           Victoria Tkatcheva      Tatiana Trujikova
Elena Vesalova          Irina Viatinina         Zinaida Voronina
Elena Zabrodina
Thanks if anyone can help with these!


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 07:11:34 MDT
Subject: tv/lay article "truth"

Let us all remember that television and magazine articles are not
responsible for telling the whole truth, or even part.  If this were
so, then we would all unconditionally be believing in the Loch ness
monster, ESP, Bigfoot, and countless other less-than-probable news
items..... This list as well should be digested with a sketpical


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 09:46:35 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Kim Zmeskal

<2. I was looking on the web and it seems that the address of the
unverisity of houston where the email from Kim Zmeskle came from is not a
real address.  That is the web address for U. of Houston is not the same
... so it leads me to believe that someone might have forged this.  Has
anyone tried emailing the address and seeing if the email is returned?>

I, out of curiosity, tried to e-mail Kim Zmeskal, just to see if it actually
was forged. My mail was sent back to me, with the header "unknown host" (or
something to that effect) It told me that the address for U of Houston was,
indeed, incorrect, which leads ME to believe it was a forged letter also. At
least I hope that Kim really didn't write that message. it didn't sound at
all like her.



Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 09:57:47 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: W-A-G Hindorff & Desert Devils

I have seen Karin Mazza from Iowa State Univerisity throw one high Hindorff.
(just as good as Dominique Dawes, but Karin's is BETWEEN the bars) It's a
great looking skill, especially when it's done with height and amplitude.
 Britnee Penman also throws one in her bar routine. She missed it at '95
USA's, but in training it was awesome. She was at Desert Devils then, but now
she has switched gyms. Does anyone know why she switched? Coreen Murphy also
is now at X-Treme Team, (formerly at Devils) and she is on the Jr National
team.( At Classic though, she wasn't near the top of the Jr Division, which I
think was caused by her leaving Devils. ) Just wondering...



Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:48:26 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Onodi

Hi all!  I usually stay pretty quiet but thoought I could help in this
matter.  Onodi has been attending school and working out for pro meets for at
least 3 years now.  This is the first I have heard of her wanting to compete
in Atlanta, and I think she has a shot, as the Hungarian team is not known to
have high difficulty IMO.  If you would like to write Onodi she can be
reached at:

     Henrietta Onodi
     c/o South Texas Gymnastics Academy
     4335 Vance-Jackson # 3
     San Antonio, TX 78230



Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:33:36 EST
From:    ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: intro

After reading GYMN-L for more than year I've decided that it's about
time I introduce myself... I'm Sara and I'm a 16 year old sophomore.
I did gymnastics till about 4th grade, but I was never very good at
it. Now I'm a swimmer who loves to watch and read about gymnastics.
My favorite gymnast is Jaycie Phelps. Any other fans of her? I've
seen very few notes about her on the list. I have a few questions
I've been meaning to ask for awhile... Does anyone have the USAG tape
of the 93 American Classic? I've managed to identify most of the
gymnasts on it but there are a few who are still unknown to me.
Anyone know what the following gymnasts are up to: Susie Kinkaid,
Soni Meduna and Jamie Martini? Haven't heard about them in awhile.
This question is related to my swimming but I thought I could get
some good answers here- anyone have any good exercises to increase
shoulder flexibility? Please e-mail me an answer to that question or
any others that you don't feel appropriate for the list.


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:37:10 -0600
Subject: Nadia Comaneche

Can anyone tell me which events that Nadia scored perfect 10's in during
the 1976 Olympics?

--Michael :)


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 13:16:50 -0500
From:    ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: Re: Nadia Comaneche

> Can anyone tell me which events that Nadia scored perfect 10's in during
> the 1976 Olympics?
        Nadia Comaneci scored 10 in compulsory bars, optional bars and
beam in team finals, bars and beam in the all-around final, and bars and
beam in the event final.


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:42:19 -0800
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 5 Apr 1996 - Special issue

Automatic digest processor writes:
> Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:51:51 +1000
> From:    ***@JCU.EDU.AU
> Subject: Re: "truth" about gymnastics
>  <snip>
> I agree with this last post!. I, have read the book mentioned, I think
> the media had a field day with it, but there wasnt much in that book that
> people in the gym community hadn't heard before. Whether the events
> depicted are accurate of the people cited is something I couldnt comment
> on being in Australia. But there has been enough comment here on training
> methods and the pressure on young athletes also....recently the A.I.S was
> investigated following allegations of abuse of gymnasts by a government
> enquiry.  I believe they were eventually cleared which did suprise me as
> I had heard accounts within the gym community which were identical to
> those alleged and investigated, more than 2 years earlier.
> I dont think anyone can disagree that our sport has a problem especially
> fir females in how a gymnasts body should be. Although this is a problem
> not confined to gymnastics!!! We have former national team members in
> Australia currently suffering from Anerexia Nervosa too.
> I think its more important to focus on ways to prevent the problem rather
> than eternal mudslinging. As far as Karolyi and Nunno go.....they produce
> world class as we say in Australia...they are tall poppies
> waiting to be cut down. Abusive coaches are not confined to the Elite

I LOVE that phrase !

Really where would the excitement be if everyone wasnt taking
potshots at Bella & Steve.

Hate 'em if you will, but you MUST admit they add to the color.

> level and neither is every elite coach an evil svengali.
> So maybe we should be discussing solutions ...rather than pretending that
> gymnastics is without any fault. Probably the most urgent problem at this
> time is Anorexia and the ideal body type necessary for elite gymnastics.
> In MY opinion....raising the age fir eligibility every so many years will
> compound the problem not solve it, because;
> a) By 16 even gymnasts training 40 hours a week will not be able to
> prevent puberty....maybe for a while...but if our Olympic and World

OK, I pretty much stick to guys gymn.
What the hell are you talking about here ?
Why are we trying to DO this ?
I may be outta my league here, but what if we were to ban prepubes ?
Might solve the mucking with puberty problem.

Next maybe there needs to be some minimum height/weight ratio
defined as to dump bulimics and anortexics.

This may be a load of crap (prolly is) but I dont have any ideas how
to solve the problems other than to restructure things so that
kids get a chance to grow more naturally.

I dont have a problem with sending a kid to the weight room,
I consider this natural
(1000 yrs ago ppl who were more athletic survived better,
they got equiv of heavy weight training as kids, I consider weight natural)
But when we play tricks to alter a girl's onset of puberty,
this is something I consider *BAD*.

And my arguement for the ratio requirements to boot bulimics
should look rather self explanitory.

We dont have this problem in guys gymn.
We gott different problems there, prolly less solvable.

I cant remember if it was this list or my other sportslist that
I posted my horror story about teenage steroid use.

> athletes are going to be older...and at the same time the difficulty
> level is forced to increase in line with the code of points..I would
> think that the reduction of bodyweight to compensate for maturing could
> end up causing a higher rate of Anorexia or Bulimia. you only have to
> read this list to see the disparaging comments made on gymnasts who have
> gained weight as a result of going thru puberty.
> b) History has shown that
> gymnasts can mature and still be competitive and amonghst the best in the
> world. For example Shushanova, Comaneci and Molosovici!!!!.But think
> back...each of these gymnasts had a period of adjustment as there body
> changed and they did at some point carry more weight than was usual for
> them...e.g.Comaneci in 78, Shushanova in 87 and Molosovici in 93.
> What worries me is that it seems that the average for going thru this
> adjustment is around the 16-18 what kind of extra pressure
> will these athletes face if they find there body changing at the same
> time as the competitions they have trained all there life for?
> Im not sure Im putting this at all well Im in the middle of a huge uni
> asignment ...but I hope you are getting the idea:)
> So to a solution....ok its been said before...but lets split artistic
> gymnastics ( Im only commenting on women as I have no experience with
> MAG) into Junior and Senior....but not by just restricting entry to

I think artistic is less of an issue in mens.
We worry bout clean form and difficulty and thats about it.

> worlds and Olympics. Rather by having separate requirements and judging
> procedures. Junior to have emphasis on compulsories and the optionals
> basically the same as they are now. BUT for the seniors lets start
> encouraging longetivity in the sport!!!! Reduce the difficulty

How you gonna beat USGF into that ?
But you are right.  Medical folk say that gymnasts tend to be
among the best conditioned athletes not counting their various injuries.
Muscularly & cardio, gymnasts tend to be in GREAT shape.

So how DO we DO this ?

> requirements or at least put some brakes on....instead have a much
> stronger emphasis on execution and artistry than the juniors....Have two
> judging panels on floor and beam...mark it like iceskating with separate
> marks for artistic and technical requirements.   Let the seniors show

Now THATS a cool idea.....

> their strengths....send a clear mesage to gymnasts and coaches that you
> are not washed up if you reach 5 foot 1" or 21yrs. Show the juniors that
> physical maturity will not mean the end of their competitive
> life...rather a passage into the next level of their sports career!

YESS !  1000 times YESS !

As silly as Reeses was, it proved that 30 yo gymnasts can still cut it.
Like maybe USGF should sanction a masters division.
USGF lurkers :  You listening ?

Id love to see Dave St Pierre make it to Atlanta just to prove it...

> juniors and the artistry of the seniors.
> I dont know whether these changes would reduce eating disorders....but it
> could go some way in reducing the pressure on 19 year olds to maintain
> the bodyshape of a 10 year old.
> Of course Im only adddressing the problem of eating disorders....we still
> have a few more to find solutions for.
> Yours
> Sharyn
> ------------------------------
> Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:42:00 -0500
> From:    ***@AOL.COM
> Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 4 Apr 1996 to 5 Apr 1996
> In a message dated 96-04-05 06:03:11 EST, you write:
> >Toying with the idea of switching someones chalk with talc !
> Man... that can really hurt someone!!!
> Mike

Glad you got the point.
No one got the joke when I spoke of greasing grips....

> ------------------------------
> Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:51:33 -0500
> From:    ***@AOL.COM
> Subject: List for folks interested in juniors
> >Everybody out there, who is looking for information specific to younger/less
> >experienced gymnasts.  I am also looking for a similiar group.  I wonder
> >however, if we could keep a mailing group active, with just this info.  I
> >don't want to start a useless debate like here, but I really don't think we
> >shouldn't post information relative to the subject.  I think there are
> >probably enough of us, to support such discussion.  I think right now we are
> >just the silent lurkers.
> I think there is plenty of room for discussion of this topic on this forum.
> And doing so might just make the appeal of the forum broader. I mean I like
> to hear what Dominique Moceanu is up to as much as the next gymn-er, but the
> main reason I subscribed to GYMN to begin with was to expand my knowledge of
> the sport and become a better coach and judge. But when the forum turns into
> a flame contest over various subjects, it is up to us to turn the discussion
> to something more productive. And this would be easy to do. All anyone need
> do is ask questions. I personally know some excellent junior level coaches
> and judges that subscribe to GYMN, but probably don't bother to respond to
> pointless flamewars. So all you junior gymnasts and parents and coaches and
> judges......JUST START TALKING. The rest should take care of itself.
> Optimistically yours,
> Dean

So far with a dozen votes in,  there have been NO votes in favor
of splitting the list.

The concern however has been that these parents feel funny about asking
questions and might feel silly gfor asking a low leverl question.

I would like to suggest that the list as it is, will hook up people
with better answers for those who have a lower level knowledge of the sport.
I get rather bored with alot of the traffic on the list as is and
would WELCOME more technical stuff.
For those of you who are afraid to ask questions, I remind you that
this list exists FOR YOU !  So ask away !

I for one wont flame you for asking a simple gymnastics question
(Ill flame AOL, bad net ettiquette, coaches who allow anorexia,
but I WONT flame rank begginner questions.....)

So...  Ill continue accepting private mail on the split issue,
and meanwhile, those of you who are afraid to ask, ]
conquor your fear and let those questions fly !

> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:09:38 -0500
> From:    ***@UNHF.UNH.EDU
> Subject: Re: splinter lists
> It matters not to me whether we have two separate lists or just the one, but
> we stay with just one, it would be nice to have a discussion about what is
> considered "appropriate" in posting topics.
> I have been very hesitant to post
> anything because I watch people get shot down for initiating discussions on
> various issues that I thought were very appropriate for the list but that many
> others on the forum didn't like. The Powerbar question, for example. I
> have several questions about Powerbars and was interested in the budding
> discussion last week about them. Then someone screamed that discussing
> Powerbars was "inappropriate" to the list and that the poster was out of line.

I missed this debacle.
I would argue nthat the matter IS on topic, being how many gymnasts
use them while training, when going out and grabbing a meal is not
doable.  Recently local paper had a whole page dedicated to the
powerbar issues and ratings of the top 6.

Rachele !  What sayest thou on this topic ?  Is it a nono ?
Are powerbars taboo ?

> I have to admit that I don't want to get screamed at by asking a question that
> violates some unspoken code of appropriateness. I like the idea of putting a
> code in our subject headers like: JO (junior olympics) or L5-10, etc. That way
> those who aren't interested in issues pertaining to younger gymnasts could
> steer clear.

Been there done that. I prolly hold the list record for reprimands...

Go ahead and post, dont be so afraid.

With the threat of splitting the list, perhaps ppl wiill be more reasonable.
The recent sniping has made me QUITE Ill.
What you want to know that you are too scared to ask ?

> Just my two cents...
> Lynanne
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:55:00 -0500
> From:    ***@AOL.COM
> Subject: Re: Splitting lists
> unable to relate to.  I did find a cable channel that airs some of the
> colligiate gymnastics, but I have only been following it for about a month
> and still don't know who's who.  My biggest gripe with the TV stations around
> here is that when a gymnastics event is slated on the national stations, the
> local affiliates, most of the time, will pre-empt with something else,  Most
> recently with "Best Little Whore House in Texas".  You can be assured that
> when that happened I got on the computer and flamed the affliate.  It was
> such a dissapointment to my girls to excpect to see some of their idols, but
> what they got to see instead was a story about whores.  I don't think that

#1 the story deals more with the coverup of the "Chicken Ranch"
   than it does with the ladies of the evening themselves.
   Mostly we discover that Dolly Parton is pretty good in a musical
   and Burt Reynolds should go back to Smokey & Bandit films.
   Its not THAT BAD a musical, so dont paint it up as porno.

#2 The locals are not obligated to carry the national feed

> My daughter (age 11) will be jumping from a 6 to an 8 this summer (she will
> be 12 then) and we are in the process of purchasing a set of dowl grips.
>  Does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to get used to them or is
> it just a matter of time.  She has been wearing a cheaper pair before

Try Reisport "Swiss CUP" dowel grips.
Dowel built in, velcro wrist strap.
Pretty idiot proof.  Roll a bit of sandpaper if you need to ream out
fingerholes a tad.

Mine are mens, but last I knew they also made them for girls too.

> (without the dowl) so I am hoping they won't be to difficult for her to get
> used to.  She is also working on handstands on the high bar but doesn't seem
> to be able to get all the way into the full handstand.  On the off chance she
> does,  she lands on her back when she dissmnounts.  Does anyone have any
> suggestions that will help her achieve these skills with success.
> Becky
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:05:05 -0500
> From:    "MCDONALD, JOEL B." <joel.mcdonald@UTMB.EDU>
> Subject: Kim Zmeskal (the end!)
> I searched the gopher student directory at University of Houston for Kim's
> address.  If they do it like most other schools, only those students who
> have email accounts are listed in the directory.
> Zmeskal produced nothing.  Under Kim, and got nobody with the first name
> of Kim (lots of last names of Kim).
> Under Kimberly, I got the following:


> I don't see a Zmeskal in there.  Now, there is the possibility that
> she is und
> er another name.  However, the bogus message that *we* were
> copied on has her userid listed as KZMESKAL.
> First of all, it's really sad that this person felt he had to construct
> this message.  I mean, does he really expect us to believe that Kim would
> write those words.


> Joel

Run a sendmail "verify" and dont be surprised if its a forgery
or a "pirate" machine on their net !


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 13:42:35 +0200
From:    ***@MERCUR.USAO.EDU
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 5 Apr 1996 - Special issue

hello everyone,
i'm a lurker, who use to be a class one gymnast back during hte old days.
when did class one change to class 10?
also, I remember a very short time around 1980, when gymnasts were able
to get more then a ten in a meet. ( i think in one televised meet marcia
fredricks got a 10.65) I was in a meet that used that code, and I wonder
just how long it lasted.
ALso, I used to do a full twisting flyaway from the top bar on bars, and
my coach always insisted it wasn't really a sumi, so can anyone tell me
if it is or not?


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:50:20 -0600
Subject: WAG: Khorkina

I think I read that Khorkina is growing more and still has the bad back on
this list? Even though this may be bad for her gymnastics career, I am
sure that any height she gains will only help her with a possible modelling
career that she wants after gymn.


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:28:50 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 5 Apr 1996 - Special issue

In a message dated 96-04-06 14:54:44 EST, you write:

>I may be outta my league here, but what if we were to ban prepubes ?
>Might solve the mucking with puberty problem.
>Next maybe there needs to be some minimum height/weight ratio
>defined as to dump bulimics and anortexics.

You have good intentions her, but they are somewhat unrealistic.  Everyone
has their own body type.  For instance, someone like Mary Lou would have a
higher height to weight ratio then someone like Khorkina.  So does that mean
Khorkina is a bulumic?  I should hope not.  Some people have bigger bones
than others, I don't think that is the way to deal with eating disorders in
gymnasts.  Imagine the controversary Steve Nunno would make if say, Shannon
Miller was called a anorexic


Date:    Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:44:05 EST
Subject: Questions

I thought that I knew a lot about gymnastics, but in some areas I am completely

1) What does IMHO mean? (sorry if I'm stupid)

2) When you write 1/1 or 2/1 etc., what do you mean? I know what most skills
are, but I can't figure out what exactly you mean. I catch the gist of what
you're saying about how many twists, but what's the other number for?

3) I hope this is not a TABOO question, but do coaches and judges make very
much money? Are there any training sessions to become either of these?

4) Does anyone out there have any videos, books, interviews, pictures, auto-
graphs, instructional videos, etc. that they would copy or sell?



End of GYMN-L Digest - 6 Apr 1996 - Special issue