GYMN-L Digest - 4 Apr 1996 to 5 Apr 1996

There are 16 messages totalling 600 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. "truth" about gymnastics
  2. GYMN-L Digest - 4 Apr 1996 to 5 Apr 1996
  3. List for folks interested in juniors
  4. An open letter concerning Mr. Garlfar Andrews
  6. zmeskal
  7. splinter lists
  8. Kim's knee
  9. ER & Kim Z.
 10. GENERAL GYMNASTICS QUESTIONS (now Kim Zmeskal free!)
 11. WAG/MAG: 1993 CODE SUperlatives...(kinda long)
 12. Dominique M. & the Kodak Commercial
 13. Jennifer Julia Lawrence
 14. Splitting lists
 15. Supply Magazines
 16. Kim Zmeskal (the end!)


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:51:51 +1000
From:    ***@JCU.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: "truth" about gymnastics

I agree with this last post!. I, have read the book mentioned, I think
the media had a field day with it, but there wasnt much in that book that
people in the gym community hadn't heard before. Whether the events
depicted are accurate of the people cited is something I couldnt comment
on being in Australia. But there has been enough comment here on training
methods and the pressure on young athletes also....recently the A.I.S was
investigated following allegations of abuse of gymnasts by a government
enquiry.  I believe they were eventually cleared which did suprise me as
I had heard accounts within the gym community which were identical to
those alleged and investigated, more than 2 years earlier.

I dont think anyone can disagree that our sport has a problem especially
fir females in how a gymnasts body should be. Although this is a problem
not confined to gymnastics!!! We have former national team members in
Australia currently suffering from Anerexia Nervosa too.

I think its more important to focus on ways to prevent the problem rather
than eternal mudslinging. As far as Karolyi and Nunno go.....they produce
world class as we say in Australia...they are tall poppies
waiting to be cut down. Abusive coaches are not confined to the Elite
level and neither is every elite coach an evil svengali.

So maybe we should be discussing solutions ...rather than pretending that
gymnastics is without any fault. Probably the most urgent problem at this
time is Anorexia and the ideal body type necessary for elite gymnastics.

In MY opinion....raising the age fir eligibility every so many years will
compound the problem not solve it, because;
a) By 16 even gymnasts training 40 hours a week will not be able to
prevent puberty....maybe for a while...but if our Olympic and World
athletes are going to be older...and at the same time the difficulty
level is forced to increase in line with the code of points..I would
think that the reduction of bodyweight to compensate for maturing could
end up causing a higher rate of Anorexia or Bulimia. you only have to
read this list to see the disparaging comments made on gymnasts who have
gained weight as a result of going thru puberty.
b) History has shown that
gymnasts can mature and still be competitive and amonghst the best in the
world. For example Shushanova, Comaneci and Molosovici!!!!.But think
back...each of these gymnasts had a period of adjustment as there body
changed and they did at some point carry more weight than was usual for
them...e.g.Comaneci in 78, Shushanova in 87 and Molosovici in 93.
What worries me is that it seems that the average for going thru this
adjustment is around the 16-18 what kind of extra pressure
will these athletes face if they find there body changing at the same
time as the competitions they have trained all there life for?

Im not sure Im putting this at all well Im in the middle of a huge uni
asignment ...but I hope you are getting the idea:)

So to a solution....ok its been said before...but lets split artistic
gymnastics ( Im only commenting on women as I have no experience with
MAG) into Junior and Senior....but not by just restricting entry to
worlds and Olympics. Rather by having separate requirements and judging
procedures. Junior to have emphasis on compulsories and the optionals
basically the same as they are now. BUT for the seniors lets start
encouraging longetivity in the sport!!!! Reduce the difficulty
requirements or at least put some brakes on....instead have a much
stronger emphasis on execution and artistry than the juniors....Have two
judging panels on floor and beam...mark it like iceskating with separate
marks for artistic and technical requirements.   Let the seniors show
their strengths....send a clear mesage to gymnasts and coaches that you
are not washed up if you reach 5 foot 1" or 21yrs. Show the juniors that
physical maturity will not mean the end of their competitive
life...rather a passage into the next level of their sports career!

Imagine this...a sport that would appeal to many more...the power of the
juniors and the artistry of the seniors.

I dont know whether these changes would reduce eating disorders....but it
could go some way in reducing the pressure on 19 year olds to maintain
the bodyshape of a 10 year old.

Of course Im only adddressing the problem of eating disorders....we still
have a few more to find solutions for.


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:42:00 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 4 Apr 1996 to 5 Apr 1996

In a message dated 96-04-05 06:03:11 EST, you write:

>Toying with the idea of switching someones chalk with talc !

Man... that can really hurt someone!!!



Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:51:33 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: List for folks interested in juniors

>Everybody out there, who is looking for information specific to younger/less
>experienced gymnasts.  I am also looking for a similiar group.  I wonder
>however, if we could keep a mailing group active, with just this info.  I
>don't want to start a useless debate like here, but I really don't think we
>shouldn't post information relative to the subject.  I think there are
>probably enough of us, to support such discussion.  I think right now we are
>just the silent lurkers.

I think there is plenty of room for discussion of this topic on this forum.
And doing so might just make the appeal of the forum broader. I mean I like
to hear what Dominique Moceanu is up to as much as the next gymn-er, but the
main reason I subscribed to GYMN to begin with was to expand my knowledge of
the sport and become a better coach and judge. But when the forum turns into
a flame contest over various subjects, it is up to us to turn the discussion
to something more productive. And this would be easy to do. All anyone need
do is ask questions. I personally know some excellent junior level coaches
and judges that subscribe to GYMN, but probably don't bother to respond to
pointless flamewars. So all you junior gymnasts and parents and coaches and
judges......JUST START TALKING. The rest should take care of itself.

Optimistically yours,


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 07:51:43 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: An open letter concerning Mr. Garlfar Andrews

A month or so ago I was judging the Central Florida invitational in Orlando.
Between sessions, I was talking to a friend of mine (a fellow gymner
coincidentally). The conversation was very one-sided and mainly consisted of
me venting my spleen over my every little peeve with other coaches, other
judges, my employers.....just anyone that sprang to mind. After about 20
minutes or so of this my friend jokingly said,"you just don't have anything
nice to say about anyone do you?"  On the 2 hour drive back to Ocala, I
reflected back on what my friend said, and darned if he wasn't right. I had
done little but whined and complained the whole weekend. Why was I so mad at
the world? I discovered that it wasn't the world I was mad at but myself (for
a variety of reasons I won't go into). It just made me feel better to have
someone to dump all my anger onto.

You may well ask, "what does any of this have to do with Mr. Andrews?"
Reading Mr. Andrews vile, venomous postings of late reminded me of my own
behavior. Mr. Andrews obviously has some pretty serious personal problems
that he is dealing with by heaping abuse on the gymnastics establishment at
large. And the way to deal with him is the same way you would deal with an
angry young gymnast. Realize that you are just a scapegoat for his
bitterness, and go on coaching.

I therefore urge everyone on this forum to simply ignore Mr. Andrews posts
until he purges his personal demons. That way perhaps we can turn GYMN back
into the information source it is intended to be. Thank you for your



Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:20:03 -0600


This is getting way out of hand. This whole thing never should have gotten
to the list. I will remind everyone what happened the LAST time a nasty
flame war gotten taken public. Since it was my fault, I can remember very
well most of the details. It led to the unsubscription of many users and
the disgruntlement of many many others.

So, I'm asking, BEGGING that we do not all start this again. I'd like to
think I learned from that mistake. Can't the rest of us too? Let's take
this matter with Garlfar off the public list and into private email. That
goes for Garlfar, too. Because I'm sick of having my email spammed with
20+ messages about Garlfar every day. The real world is annoying me enough.


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:43:09 EST
From:    ***@MAIL.FIRN.EDU
Subject: zmeskal

I have been reading all the mail about Kim Zmeskal lately, and I am tired
of all the bad things that are being written about her.  Let us not forget
about all the accomplishments she has acheived for U.S. Gymnastics.  Seven
years ago women's gymnastics in the U.S. was, I hope I do not offend
anyone, mediocre.  Sure, we had a lot of really good past achievements, but
if you would have told me then that America would have a world all-around
champion in 1991 I would have never believed it.  Kim and her generation
turned around U.S. gymnastics, being the only medalists in a long time in a
non-boycotted olympics and worlds.  I too am disappointed, because I would
have loved to see Kim in Atlanta.  In my opinion, Kim is the best tumbler
the U.S. has ever had, better than even Mary Lou or Brandy or Dominique.
Skeptics can just think back to her 92 trials floor routine!  I have never
seen a whip through to a double layout since.  That is incredible.  I only
wish she could have thrown all her best tumbling in the floor finals in
Barcelona.  If she would have and hit, she would have definitley won the
gold medal.


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:09:38 -0500
From:    ***@UNHF.UNH.EDU
Subject: Re: splinter lists

It matters not to me whether we have two separate lists or just the one, but if
we stay with just one, it would be nice to have a discussion about what is
considered "appropriate" in posting topics.

I have been very hesitant to post
anything because I watch people get shot down for initiating discussions on
various issues that I thought were very appropriate for the list but that many
others on the forum didn't like. The Powerbar question, for example. I actually
have several questions about Powerbars and was interested in the budding
discussion last week about them. Then someone screamed that discussing
Powerbars was "inappropriate" to the list and that the poster was out of line.

I have to admit that I don't want to get screamed at by asking a question that
violates some unspoken code of appropriateness. I like the idea of putting a
code in our subject headers like: JO (junior olympics) or L5-10, etc. That way
those who aren't interested in issues pertaining to younger gymnasts could
steer clear.

Just my two cents...


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:14:25 -0600
From:    ***@MAGIC1.ORG
Subject: Kim's knee

O.K.  I've listened long enough.  I'm not taking sides, not trying to =
anger anyone, and not trying to make enemies.  But, I think that =
everyone is leaving a major portion of the Kim Zmeskal story out.  =
Unless you have had knee surgery as Kim did, you couldn't possibly know =
what it is like to try and come back from it.  Unfortunately, I did.  =
The second you have torn your ACL, the doctors tell you that you will =
never do gymnastics again, and even walking isn't going to be the same.  =
If you do decide to make a comeback, you spend a year in rehab, which is =
10 times as hard as gymnastics workouts, and not nearly as fun.  You =
gain weight even if you don't eat, your self-esteem hits rock bottom, =
and you are angry at everyone.  By the time you have finished with =
rehab, you have no personal strength left to start training.  I admire =
Kim for even entertaining the thought to make a comeback.  I cannot =
speak for Kim, but I know how difficult it was for me.  Please bare in =
mind what she has been through, and realize that there is a good =
possibility you cannot understand it.=20



Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:23:57 -0600
From:    ***@CARLETON.EDU
Subject: ER & Kim Z.

1. Was watching ER again last night and this time Carter came in and told
Dr. Green that there was a junior gymnast in one of the examining rooms.
They never showed her or anything and nothing else was mentioned.  This
is the second week in a row that the show has mentioned gymnasts in the
ER and both times they have not been a plot line at all.

2. I was looking on the web and it seems that the address of the
unverisity of houston where the email from Kim Zmeskle came from is not a
real address.  That is the web address for U. of Houston is not the same
... so it leads me to believe that someone might have forged this.  Has
anyone tried emailing the address and seeing if the email is returned?


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:43:03 -0600
Subject: GENERAL GYMNASTICS QUESTIONS (now Kim Zmeskal free!)

1) I was wondering about something. I was at the French Gymnastics
Federation WWW page and I saw that they call the up coming Worlds the
THIRD Individual event worlds. NOw, if Paris was first, was Brisbane
the second (even though it had an AA)? What does that mean for
San Juan? Will it be AA and EF or just EF?  I was just wondering.......

2) I also still wonder about who decides on start value for routines? Is it
the actual judges who give the gymnast their score or is it a separate
group who ONLY determine start value.

3) With US NAtionals coming up, does anyone know if the meet will use that
misleading 0.1 bonus on vault for using two different vaults in AA? I
can't see how it has helped US vaulting. Can anyone?

4) Does anyone know if Kotchekova is still trained by Shevchenko as was
stated in 1994?


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:50:07 -0600
From:    ***@EDEN.COM
Subject: Re: WAG/MAG: 1993 CODE SUperlatives...(kinda long)

I've been out of the loop for awhile, so I don't know what the most current
used skills are but here are my $0.02 (for WAG):

At 10:11 PM 3/25/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Anyone want to give input to a superlatives list for the soon to be gone
>CODE of Points.
>Things I am looking for are:
>Easiest E (per event)

UPB:  Full-out (I have NEVER understood the reason for the value difference
between the full in, 1/2:1/2, and full-out.  A full-out=double/double?)?
Else a Hindorff....Easy enough for me to say :) --UPB has always been my
weakest judging event.   Not too many E skills here (or anywhere, really....)

BB: 1/1 illusion or sheep jump (ugly skill...have never liked it.)  1/1
illusion because it is more a flexibility skill.  [I perceive flames coming

Also--Gainer 1/1 at end.  Ever see one done to Code?  I have seen a Gainer
2/1 off the end from a cartwheel (one leg), but I don't think that qualifies
as a true D/E skill.

FX: Rudi (old code) else double layout, simply because 'less' technique is
required than say a twisting double.

>Most Underrate Skill (per event)
BB: Considering the judging system, I think skills within the same category
are fairly ranked.  Difficulty arises when skills of different groups are
compared.  2/1 turn vs double tuck off?  Better yet--1/2 illusion vs. layout
step-out?  Yet a 2/1 turn SHOULD be more difficult than and 1/2 illusion,
and it is.

>Most abused skill to get bonus (per event)

V: 1/2, 1/2 front.  Too many gymnasts do a Tsuk 1/2 (IMHO).

BB: Um...It's only a D but the Omelianchik.  Now the "Miller" is cool if
done correctly (and to a stable h-stand).  But how many of those have we
seen? (and is it worth an E?)

FF-straddle jump; switch leap-(gainer) FF.  I see these all the time in NCAA.

FX: Can we say Popa?  Or sloppy front full's?  Now a beautiful Rudi in the
middle of a pass is awesome!

>Most beautiful/aristic skill (per event)
Strasheva's '89 UPB set.  The whole thing. :)
Sorry---had to slip that in there.  I have always loved stalder's.  Anyone
remember Marlowe's old stalder-hop-stalder?  When she hit it, it
was....sigh.  But then I'm a sucker for flexibility skills.

BB: full turn in Y-scale to back needle.  Psycho skill, not in code, but I
have seen it.  Absolutely amazing.

FX:  While I have always been partial to 3/1 fulls, one of my favorites is a
double outside turn with extended leg.  [And being a Garrison fan, I love
her leap, when done high and well.)

>Thing I would change if *I* wrote the new code.
Besides a more logical classification system?  Or a Code that correctly
addresses bonus connections based on true vs. by-the-book difficulty?  A
Code that will successfully reward artistry over pure/sloppy difficulty, yet
reward that same difficulty when done correctly?  As much as I hate figure
skating politics, it is forgiving.  One two-footed landing is not the end of
the world, while one step on a dismount could mean the end of one.
>I'll be interested in what people think. I guess you already know my most
>abused skill (but not to get bonus) on UB!

I know I didn't really stay within our guidelines, but maybe this will
generate a thread.



Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:59:10 -0500
From:    ***@WAM.UMD.EDU
Subject: Dominique M. & the Kodak Commercial

Alot of people have been saying many things about the problems, and
benefits of elite athletes and the world of marketing and advertising.  I
think the problem lies in direct, or indirect "assumptions" people make
when they see these commercials and so question if the commercial "lied"
or at least "grossly exaggerated" things about the athlete whether it be
skill in their sport, and their potential to be good in their sport.
I must say that I am not against Dominique and others making commercials
that we see on T.V. They have a hard enough time already trying to get
the money to fund their careers.  I know alot of parents who spend their
whole life savings on their childs career.  However, the problem with
this particular commercial is not that an athlete is in it, marketing
themselves.  The problem with it is the "assumptions" that are in it,
whether intended or not.
The Kodak commercial showed past Olympic gold medalists in various
sports from Nadia Comenici to former track-and-field runners and
heptathalon athletes who are now Congressman or businessmen showing off
their gold medals and snapshots of them in their respective Olympic
Games.  Then, it shows the "Atlanta 1996" banner, and you see Dominique
Moceanu.  While this was a cute commercial, it did give the impression
that Dom. was not only on the same level as the Olympic gold medalists
before her, but also "implied" that she would be the next "Nadia" of
gymnastics.  Now, I don't know if Kodak did this intentionally, however, I
don't think they did.  I must say that this is almost the same kind of
situation that Kim Z. was in.  However, one little commercial won't
change anything, and Dom M. will still have to prove that she belongs on
that Olympic team, Kodak commercial or not.
With that said, I wish all of the Olympic athletes luck in the Trials,
for that is the real test, and I'll see YOU in a few months.


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:24:27 -0500
From:    ***@HICOM.NET
Subject: Jennifer Julia Lawrence

Sorry to bother all the GYMNers with this, but would Jennifer Julia Lawrence
PLEASE e-mail me ASAP?  Thanks!!!



Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:55:00 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Splitting lists

When I first brought up the question of finding another list more focused on
younger gymnasts, I had no idea of the responses I would recieve.  I still
think another list would be beneficial to us parents who would like to
express our questions and concerns.  It does get a little frustrating weeding
out all the flaming going on with gymn-l and I feel our questions would get
lost amoung all the other talk.  I feel also that, the subjects, tend to get
talked into the ground.  I find myself reading the same post over and over
with just a hairs difference in the responses.  If you feel you need to quote
the original post, then please just quote a small part of it as we all have
read it in the first place.

I have not been able to keep up on the gymnasts of today mainly due to the TV
coverage or should I say lack of it so most of the talk on this list I am
unable to relate to.  I did find a cable channel that airs some of the
colligiate gymnastics, but I have only been following it for about a month
and still don't know who's who.  My biggest gripe with the TV stations around
here is that when a gymnastics event is slated on the national stations, the
local affiliates, most of the time, will pre-empt with something else,  Most
recently with "Best Little Whore House in Texas".  You can be assured that
when that happened I got on the computer and flamed the affliate.  It was
such a dissapointment to my girls to excpect to see some of their idols, but
what they got to see instead was a story about whores.  I don't think that
was good judgment on the stations part knowing that young girls would be

My daughter (age 11) will be jumping from a 6 to an 8 this summer (she will
be 12 then) and we are in the process of purchasing a set of dowl grips.
 Does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to get used to them or is
it just a matter of time.  She has been wearing a cheaper pair before
(without the dowl) so I am hoping they won't be to difficult for her to get
used to.  She is also working on handstands on the high bar but doesn't seem
to be able to get all the way into the full handstand.  On the off chance she
does,  she lands on her back when she dissmnounts.  Does anyone have any
suggestions that will help her achieve these skills with success.



Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:55:03 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Supply Magazines

I have got a lot of response concerning the catalogs out there.  So I am
forwarding this message to the entire list so all the parents interested can
get a catalog.  I have called them and said I got the info from this list so
I'm sure they will be looking for more calls and the gal I talked to was very
friendly.  Thanks to you liz and all the other parents out there who

Forward message............

>Subj:  Supply Magazines
>Date:  96-04-03 08:56:35 EST

>I get a catalog called "10.0" and it has a couple of leotards, but it's
>mostly gymnastic supplies like grips and shoes and bags and cute things
>like stuffed animals.  Anyway, the company that puts out the magazine is:
>       GMR Gymnastics Sales, Inc.
>       4679 Hugh Howell Road
>       Tucker, Georgia 30084
>       1-800-241-9249          I'm sure if you call, they can send you a
>catalog.  I hope this helps you.  :)  Liz Arena
Again,  I did call and I should have my catalog in about a week.
thanks again.


Date:    Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:05:05 -0500
From:    ***@UTMB.EDU
Subject: Kim Zmeskal (the end!)

I searched the gopher student directory at University of Houston for Kim's
address.  If they do it like most other schools, only those students who
have email accounts are listed in the directory.

Zmeskal produced nothing.  Under Kim, and got nobody with the first name
of Kim (lots of last names of Kim).

Under Kimberly, I got the following:
      1.  Deborah Kimbrell (person)
      2.  Kim Howard (person)
      3.  Kimberley Flaharty (person)
      4.  Kimberley Hause (person)
      5.  Kimberlie Spencer (person)
      6.  Kimberly A Adams (person)
      7.  Kimberly A McArver (person)
      8.  Kimberly Bell (person)
      9.  Kimberly Benigno (person)
      10. Kimberly Copeland (person)
      11. Kimberly Delaney (person)
      12. Kimberly Gaylor (person)
      13. Kimberly Harmon (person)
      14. Kimberly Hollingsworth (person)
      15. Kimberly K Fowler (person)
      16. Kimberly K Matthews (person)
      17. Kimberly Lopez (person)
      18. Kimberly M Jordan (person)
      19. Kimberly Morisak (person)
      20. Kimberly Reister (person)
      21. Kimberly S Busyn (person)
      22. Kimberly Shugart (person)
      23. Kimberly Smith (person)
      24. Kimberly Zindler-Diepraam (person)
      25. Kimberlyn G Houston (person)

I don't see a Zmeskal in there.  Now, there is the possibility that
she is und
er another name.  However, the bogus message that *we* were
copied on has her userid listed as KZMESKAL.

First of all, it's really sad that this person felt he had to construct
this message.  I mean, does he really expect us to believe that Kim would
write those words.

I, for one, and through with this thread.  I wish Kim all the luck in
her normal life and thank her for all that she's given us.



End of GYMN-L Digest - 5 Apr 1996 - Special issue