GYMN-L Digest - 3 Apr 1996 to 4 Apr 1996

There are 16 messages totalling 537 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Statistics
  2. Videos
  3. Nordic Champ.
  4. Angry responses to - Dominque Moceanu (2)
  5. off-line
  6. Plea for help!
  7. GYMN-L Digest - 2 Apr 1996 - Special issue
  8. Soviet replacements (2)
  9. UPCOMING: TV and Events
 10. GYMN-L Digest - 1 Apr 1996 to 2 Apr 1996
 11. Big 10's
 12. "Russians" apology
 13. Dominique Dawes
 14. Intro, coaching question, and help


Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 05:34:00 MST
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Statistics

*  Country        Subscribers
*  -------        -----------
*  Australia             22
*  Austria                1
*  Belgium                2
*  Canada                31
*  Chile                  1
*  Finland                1
*  France                 2
*  Germany                3
*  Great Britain         16
*  Hungary                1
*  Iceland                2
*  Ireland                1
*  Israel                 1
*  Italy                  1
*  Japan                  1
*  Malaysia               2
*  Mexico                 1
*  Netherlands            3
*  New Zealand            3
*  Norway                 2
*  Portugal               2
*  Slovenia               1
*  South Africa           2
*  Spain                  4
*  Sweden                 6
*  Ukraine                1
*  USA                  664
* Total number of users subscribed to the list:  778
* Total number of countries represented:          27


Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:38:18 PST
From:    ***@AMDAHL.CO.ZA
Subject: Videos

Is there anyone who would like a copy of my now complete video list? I would
love to swap with everyone!!!  :)


Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:57:26 +0200
From:    ***@DD.CHALMERS.SE
Subject: Nordic Champ.

I just came home from Iceland and the Nordic championships. Here are
some info.
Nordic Championships is a competition between Sweden, Norway, Finland,
Denmark, and Iceland.
The team competition: men
1 Sweden
2 Finland
3 Denmark
4 Norway
5 Iceland

It was very thight, only 2 points between number 1 and 4.
The individual comp. men
1 Magnus Rosengren
2 Jari Monkenen
3 Espen Jansen

The finals was spectacular
Magnus won floor. He started with a dubbeltwisting dubbel back, then
handspring stright full twist - staight - straight full twist, and fininsed
with a tsukahara. (9.5)
Jari Monkenen won pommels
Marten Rasmusen (DEN) won rings (9.4). We saw a triple back from a swede
Vault won Magnus with a kasamatsu half, and a kasamatsu full.
P.Bar won Flemming Solberg (NOR)
H.Bar won Kaspar Fardan (DEN). He did Kovacs direct Gienger and dismounted
with a NEW ELEMENT!!! Tripple piked. (9.5)

Sweden also won the team competition for girls followed by Norway and
Charlotte from Denmark won the individual comp. She did her element,
dubbel Minichelli half twist!

The competition was of the model (5-4-3). 5 in the team, 4 in each piece
and 3 counts.

Greetings from Peter


Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:37:45 -0600
Subject: Re: Angry responses to - Dominque Moceanu

Let's think about this for a while, shall we:

1) Maybe Dominique did look like crud and there was a reason for, like
   she was working too hard, being pushed too hard, etc. HECK PEOPLE!

2) MAYBE JOAN RYAN HAD A POINT????? I'm not saying that the book was
   100 percent correct. BUt she made it clear she wanted to deal with
   the negative side of the sport. So let her deal with it. In the
   case of the athletes in question, maybe she was right.

3) THIS FORUM IS FOR ALL OPINIONS!!!! I guess my sarcasm didn't get
   through last night. If people want to say something negative about
   gymnastics, or something bad, cripes, they HAVE A RIGHT! Anyuone
   around here ever stop to consider that just because something is
   wrong with gymnastics that it doesn't mean the whole isn't bad, or
   that it could be fixed? As Alex said last night, let's be open-
   minded. Instead of putting stuff on the list like "Let's ignore
   Garlfar," why not either take it to private email or just ignore
   him completely, and leave the rest of us out of it?


Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:58:12 -0500
Subject: off-line

Dear Friends,

I just wanted to let y'all know that I'll be off-line for about a week.  I'm
having some hardware professionally installed so I don't break anything!
I'll let you know when I'm back up.



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:13:46 -0600
From:    "***@SNCAC.SNC.EDU
Subject: Re: Angry responses to - Dominque Moceanu

> 3) THIS FORUM IS FOR ALL OPINIONS!!!! I guess my sarcasm didn't get
>    through last night. If people want to say something negative about
>    gymnastics, or something bad, cripes, they HAVE A RIGHT! Anyuone
>    around here ever stop to consider that just because something is
>    wrong with gymnastics that it doesn't mean the whole isn't bad, or
>    that it could be fixed? As Alex said last night, let's be open-
>    minded. Instead of putting stuff on the list like "Let's ignore
>    Garlfar," why not either take it to private email or just ignore
>    him completely, and leave the rest of us out of it?


According to you this forum is for opinions.  So, let's say I had my
chance to speak a word and secondly, as you see from my previously posted
message I mostly summarize the problem and help Galfar to understand why
people are angry at him, not flame him.  Peace? :)



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:32:59 -0500
From:    ***@UNHF.UNH.EDU
Subject: Re: Plea for help!

I am also interested in conversing with other gymn-enthusiasts who are more
involved with the Level 5-10 kids. My daughter is a 10-year old Level 5
(almost 6), and although I find most of the information discussed on this list
interesting, I would love more discussion of booster club issues, parent
issues, how-to's for young girls (or boys) who are trying to "level-up", etc. I
don't have the technical expertise to set up and/or run another list for these
kinds of discussions, and I haven't brought up these issues on this list
because I have gotten the impression that most of the people on the list are
beyond this stuff, but I'd love to see another list get started!! Count me in!!



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:45:45 -0800
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 2 Apr 1996 - Special issue

Automatic digest processor writes:
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Date:    Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:32:52 -0700
> From:    ***@ASU.EDU
> Subject: When will the media learn?
>         I've heard this statement (in one form or another) a couple times on
> this forum:  "You'd think the media would learn after the Zmeskal build-up not
> to overhype gymnasts." (i.e. Moceanu).
>         Since when is it the media's responsibility to ensure Zmeskal,
> Moceanu, or anyone else performs well at the Olympics?  If you really
> want to be crass, you could say that the media _benefitted_ from Kim's
> flame-out, since that created a dramatic story for them to report.
> Reporters are not U.S. gymnastics team boosters.  They have a job to do,

You got THAT right !

> and they do it, and I don't think they really care whether it helps or
> hurts an individual athlete's performance.
>         This may be an old issue, but I do think it's relevant to note
> that Bela Karolyi _actively encouraged_ the hype buildup of Zmeskal.
> Consider his statement (paraphrased from IG) after the Paris
> Worlds that Zmeskal was "unbeatable" and "the best in the world"  Yet a few
> months later he _blames_ the media for her collapse.  I think a good deal of
> media hype can be avoided.  If you don't want Sports Illustrated article
> about your rivalry with Svetlana Boguinskaya,don't talk to the reporters.  If
> NBC asks you for an interview even though you're injured and not competing at
> the event, say "No.  Why don't you interview the winners of the event."

Actually history has shown that unless you are really hot,
once you refuse them, they will ignore you in the future.

If you come off podium, totally burnt and need 2 min to get your head together,
and they stuff a mike in your face,
you say "Hey can you give me 2 min to get it together?", they WONT come back.

> If Kodak wants to put you in a commercial with gold medalists and imply
> that you'll be there (and win) in Atlanta, you can refuse.  How hard is that?

Very hard, since the kids fear that if you refuse once,
your chances on camera ever again are dead.
Think back to when you were kids, (I cant believe you have forgotten that much)
the lure of a camera is great.  To kids whove trained 30+ hrs a week since
they were 7, the camera or coaching are the only avenues the feel will be
open to them once they get "old" and are abandoned by the USGF.

And these kids DO know that the gymnastics world will use them up
and crumple them like a used beer can.
They view the camera as a way NOT to be tossed aside when they are "old".

If you are Mary Lou, dont sweat it, they'll be back.

If you are Bonnie Ward, you ARE dead in the water.

>         You may flame at will.

I didnt flame you, your skin doesnt even have blisters !

> Leslie
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Date:    Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:21:31 -0500
> From:    ***@AOL.COM
> Subject: Plea for help!
> Please forgive me for cluttering up your mailbox with this but I am looking
> for some info on any other mail lists that focus more on the junior gymnasts.
> Specifically between the levels of 5 and 10.  I have two daughters both
> involved in gym, my 12 year old is a level 8 and my 9 year old is a level 5.
>  We would like to find a list that deals with these levels with other
> gymnasts, parents, coaches and judges.
> I am also looking for a gym catalog that carries not only leotards but also
> the equipment needed for my daughters, such as hand grips beam shoes, etc.
>  We live in Illinois so It would probably have to be mail order.  If you know
> of any, could you send me an address or a phone number, thanks.
> If anyone on this list can help me I would greatly appreciate it.  Please
> send any info to:                                             Snaf
> (if any one else is interested in this info, e-mail me also and I will
> forward any response I get to you).  Thanks again to all of you in advance.
> Mother of gymnasts
> Snaf 2

Call the pro shop at Calif Sports Centre, 408 area code, San Jose' Calif.
Sorry I dont have number handy.  See if they will mail order for you.
They have well stocked pro shoppe.



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 18:14:55 EST
Subject: Soviet replacements

Here's a new subject:  Through the years, has anyone kept track
of different Soviet gymnasts were pulled from meets due to mystery
injuries so that their non-qualifying teammates could compete? It
might be interesting to see who was pulled, and how the replacing
gymnasts later fared in the competition.

If you think about it, even with that the soviet teams always appear
very close.  Maybe thats what the US team needs to get their gymnasts
to start acknowledging one another??



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 18:47:21 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: UPCOMING: TV and Events

This weekend there will be a gymnastics exhibition (featuring Nadia Comaneci
among others) at the Sea World in Orlando, Flordia.

Also, Nadia will be on "Good Morning America" with finacee Bart Conner either
Thursday or Friday morning (I think it's Friday).



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:05:53 -0600
Subject: Re: Soviet replacements

Soviet gymnast were close because they trained together for a long time and
lived togther, isolated from family and the world, essentially. The sports
system had complete control over there life. In US, people do not give the
coach complete control over someone's life from age 5 till their washed up.
You may think they do, but they don't. KArolyi can't stop things like
wishes to move to other gyms, etc. I don't think that subing people would help
the US situation.

BTW: Even in the SAME gym, people aren't really close. Look at most of the
file footage on Karolyi's and Nunno. Maybe in other places they're close,
but not there.



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:33:46 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 1 Apr 1996 to 2 Apr 1996


I am a gymnast.  I go to Watkins Gymnastics.  My favorite gymnast is Dominic
Moceanu.  I hope she goes to the Olympics.  Good Luck.

                                                                 Your fan,

                                                        Kim Johnson


Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:54:15 -0500
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Big 10's

Did anyone by chance tape Big 10's? I was only home in time to see the 2nd
1/2 of the meet, but I'd pay someone for postage, etc if they could send me a
copy. I was extremely happy to see Michigan win, despite their beam
difficulties. Beth Amelkovich is a great person ( I know her personally) and
she truly deserved to win. Watch for her at NCAA's!!!

Thanks in advance,



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 18:17:01 -0700
From:    ***@ASU.EDU
Subject: "Russians" apology

        I wish to apologize to anyone on this forum who was offended or
emotionally distressed by my reference to "Russians" at the '89 Worlds.
This reference came up because I was trying to remember a particular bars mount
performed around that time.  I did not remember the name of the gymnast who
performed it, much less the ethnic makeup of the team at the time.  In
'89 they were merely classed as the Soviet team, and "Soviet" is the word
I probably should have used.  However, since that time the word "Soviet"
has become an anachronism and is rarely used.  I haven't used it in some
time, so it didn't occur to me to use it.  I regret any harm this mistake
may have caused.
        My original post ("Amy Chow's bars mount") was a request for information,
and I specifically mentioned that my memory was not very good (it WAS 7
years ago), so I never intended to imply that my speculations about the bars
mount were "facts" (as in "get your facts straight.")



Date:    Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:46:54 GMT
Subject: Dominique Dawes

        Does anyone know how Dominique Dawes is doing?  I haven't heard
anything about her since February, and I was just wondering how her training
for the world championships was going, etc..  Is she concentrating only on
gymnastics or is she still taking some college courses too?  Someone please


Date:    Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:58:59 -0600
Subject: Intro, coaching question, and help

Hello fellow gymners:

Well, as you can see from my subject, I am "new" to this listserv, but to be
honest, I have been reading these most interesting, and sometimes rather
entertaining, postings for months.  I thought that this would be a good time
to 'introduce' myself.  I have this tendancy to tangentially ramble on, so
please forgive what may seem like pointless psychobabble : )

I am student at Northwestern University getting a degree in Education - I
plan to teach biology and psychology at the high school level.  My
experience in gymnastics is solely at the recreational level, as I did many
sports as an adolescent. . .but I am interested in coaching gym at the high
school level so if anyone out there can give me some tips as to how to go
about this, I would greatly appreciate it.  I guess you could say that I
have been following gymnastics (probably not as religiously as some) since
the Mary Lou/Bart Conner et al. generation, and I have loved watching this
sport (both men and womens) evolve ever since.  This listserv has been great
in providing info and discussion about a sport that, generally speaking, you
hardly hear about (except around the Olympics).

At any rate, I will save you all from my boring autobiography, but there is
one thing I would like to bring up, don't worry, it's not controversial
(although those topics seem to generate the most interesting conversation).
I am working on my thesis for this summer, and it is all about the
socialization aspects of gifted and talented adolescents.  Part of my
research will consist of solely the academically talented, but what is most
relevant to me is the research on "gifted" athletes.  I want to focus on
gymnasts, well, mainly the females because many of them train pretty
intensely at the age I'm interested in, although I'm sure there are males
out there as well (and I'd love to hear about them).   I haven't ironed out
all the details yet, but I plan to put together a questionnaire/survey for
athletes who for instance, go to school part time, or even full time, or at
home, or through correspondence, or a private  (or what have you), but train
nearly full time.  (I would be interested in interviews as well.)   Many
people (the media, journalists) say that gifted students, be it at
academics, an instrument, or a sport, "give up" things that their peers
experience, but I tend to disagree, and this is part of the motivation for
my research.

To clear up any mixed feelings/reactions out there, this project is not
going to "exploit" the sport of gymnastics.  I, for one, would never do that
(that's what Joan Ryan's for).  Although, according to Garlfar, yes there
are taboo talking truths out there, I want, if anything, to address  the
educational issues so that athletes can do both.  As an educator, I plan on
private tutoring for athletes like this, so in a way,  I would like to know
what the best types of interventions, pedagogy, etc. work for students of
this nature. Although I will never be a Bela Karolyi, or to be fair, a Kelli
Hill, I still want to contribute to a sport I believe is the most amazing -
I mean what other sport do you spend 95% of the time in mid air?  Not even a
feat Jordan could imagine. . .not to disparage the king of  basketball
himself  : )  Without any further glib, if anyone could please email me
privately if you are a coach, or a gymnast (male or female), or really
anyone with advice that would just love to help a poor college student out.
The OTC hasnt' really helped, but if anyone has the proper channels and
would like to share, please do.

Thanks for the great conversation - I, too, believe in hearing everyone's
opinions - although I probably just dug myself a hole by saying that. . .
anyway thanks for reading, sorry if this was a bit long, I can't help it,
I'm going to be a teacher!  (If any of  this seems senseless, it's probably
because I'm on this bizarre college student sleep cycle) and any response,
flames as well, are welcome.




End of GYMN-L Digest - 3 Apr 1996 to 4 Apr 1996