GYMN-L Digest - 2 Dec 1995 to 3 Dec 1995

There are 18 messages totalling 554 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. Meets in Wisconsin
2. Results from 1990- 1994
3. 1995 National Gymnastics Training Tapes?
4. BB stuff
5. Women's Elite Canada
6. IBM Atlanta Invite - NBC coverage
7. kip on beam
8. Atlanta invite comments (3)
9. Altanta Invite (2)
10. Full Twisting Pak Salto
11. AGI (2)
12. USA TV: ABC in 1996
13. Dance skills
14. <No subject given>

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:58:20 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Meets in Wisconsin

Does anyone know of any meets coming up in Wisconsin, where they are, and
when they are? I think there was a meet in the spring at West High School in
Madison and I think Amanda Borden was in it.

Thanks,
Lauren

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:40:48 -0500
From: ***@UMICH.EDU
Subject: Results from 1990- 1994

Hello,I was wondering in addition to the Pan American and Goodwill Games,
could someone please send me results from meets that occured in Europe and
Asia. This also includes Worlds and Olympic Games.

Thank you very much.

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:40:47 EST
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: 1995 National Gymnastics Training Tapes?

I was wondering where I could order the 1995 National
Training Tapes. I heard a few people on the list talking
about them and I was just wondering if they are still on
sale- if they are, could you give me the place of purchase?
I tried to find them listed in IG, but I was unsuccessful.
Thanks,
Anne

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:54:46 -0600
From: ***@EDEN.COM
Subject: BB stuff

2/1-in would be a double full in the first salto. I remember seeing it on
my European's tape. Grosheva also did a whip immediate double back and a
beautiful turn (2/1?) with leg extended to back needle scale.

I've seen what approximates a layout-pike dismount, but I think there is a
problem with the punch off the end for a double layout. [And in this bonus
crazy time, a full-in has equal bonus and "less" risk. "So why bother?"]

Clarification---If I remember correctly an Elliot is a triple twisting
double, not a 3/1-in (nice trick, that!)

UPB--Has anyone ever twisted a Pak salto? And is Larissa Fontaine still
injured? I remember her when she first went Elite MANY years ago. Her
sister? Jessica also went Elite (beautiful lines for a 10 year old), but I
think Larissa had more drive.


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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:58:36 -0400
From: ***@CAPITALNET.COM
Subject: Women's Elite Canada

The 1995 Women's Elite Canada will be taking place on Friday December 8th and
Saturday December 9th at Seneca College in North York, Ontario. This is the
qualification meet for Canadian High Performance (HP) women in artistic
gymnastics.

The meet is used to rank gymnasts for national funding and team status.
For the Senior HP women, their performances will help determine who
goes to the Apparatus World Championships in April.

The schedule is as follows:
Friday: 11:30am Junior Optionals 1
6:30pm Senior Compulsories
Saturday: 11:30am Junior Optionals 2
6:30pm Senior Optionals

So far, I have heard that only Tammy Stauffer, Eve Marie Poulin, and Marleen
Lavoie (injured at Subway) have withdrawn with injuries.

Tickets are under $10 and can be purchased at the door. The campus is
located the northwest of Finch Avenue exit from the Don Valley Parkway North
(or whatever it is called north of Hwy 401).

The meet will be televised on Rogers cable. ...only.

For those interested in a GYMN-L meeting, I'll be hungry after the evening
sessions :^). E-mail me by Thursday night with suggestions.

See ya!

Grace

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:43:49 -0800
From: ***@ENG.SUN.COM
Subject: IBM Atlanta Invite - NBC coverage

Okay, let's hear it from the Poliburo (aka Gymn ;^)

Good to see that NBC picked up the pace of the meet with their editing. The
meet in Atlanta was molasses slow, especially the first day. The television
coverage made it seem like a normal meet in this regard.

Editing after the fact has its strengths and weaknesses. Did anyone that
watched the meet on television (and my apologies to those of us from other
countries than the U.S.) find it kind of weird that the meet appeared on TV
to occur on one day? All the girls changing their leotards between the 2nd
and 3rd rotation. Different size of audience. Bogie suddenly wearing a
GAP sweatshirt. And all the while the commentators sounding like they never
left the venue. (But then again, maybe they didn't ;^)

What was far more peculiar to me, other than the splicing of days one and two
was the editing out of the men. Okay, herewegoagainwhydon'ttheyshowmoremen's
gymnasticsontelevisionwhinewhinemoanmoan but it's so peculiar to see the
occasional guy setting up the apparatus in the background, never to be
mentioned, never to be heard from again. Relegated to the void. Swept away.
Nothing.

Aside from the usual wringing of hands, what did you guys think of the
gymnastics you did see? I'm dead impressed with the Chinese girls on
UB, as exampled by Liu Xuan's routine. In my opinion the Chinese girls'
UB is like a different apparatus compared to the rest of the countries.
Higgins to Yaeger? Who else is doing that kind of thing? And their
tumbling on FX as well as choreography has come a long way since '92.

Speaking of FX, they didn't show my favorite floor routine. But now I can't
remember who it was. Teza of France? Maybe it was one of the Spanish girls.
Notes are back at the office. Nice and innovative dance. (Dance? In a
gymnastics routine? I know I know. Very strange concept ;^)

Yours in Gymnastics,

-George

p.s. It's very peculiar (that must be the word for the day) when they show
a synopsis of sorts on television by highlighting a handful of routines, but
then talk through the routine about things other than that routine. NBC
did this for the men's meet by highlighting Wilson and Simon's SR routines and
Svetlichnyi's HB routine. I thought it would have been more appropriate
to showcase the routines as they were being shown, as opposed to talking
about the coaches, how the athletes did at Worlds, the upcoming Olympics,
etc. In my mind such a situation is a perfect opportunity for the media
to educate its audience about gymnastics in general and men's gymnastics
in particular. They could have mentioned the various skills, their
relative difficulty, stuff like that. Maybe with familiarity would come
a
renewed interest.

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:44:27 -0500
From: ***@EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: kip on beam

I saw a girl do a mount on beam, with a kip, possibley to handstand. It
was the 1995 McDonlad's competition, where Kritie Philips and John
Roethlesburger won AA. I believe she mounted from the side into a hand
stand, half turned and di the kip....someone who has seen the competition
more recently could probably give a better description. It has been
quite a few months since I have seen it. Hope that helps.
Aaron

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:12:25 -0500
From: ***@WAM.UMD.EDU
Subject: Atlanta invite comments

First of all this was the first meet that I have seen (not including the
olympics) where i didn't mind the as they are called here 'fluff'
stories. There were informative and not the 'she trains for 8 hours,
has two sisters, has a 4.0 GPA' (sidenote here...have you ever heard
the commentators say any athlete has less than a 4.0? I just think
its funny to always here they have a 4.0!)

Anyways...can anyone explain to me Mohini's score on bars of 9.312.m
Was it a 10.0 routine?

Roza Galiyeva looked great...she looks to pose a challenge in Atlanta
if she makes the team...only problem is will she be put in a good
place in the lineup?

Svetlana Boginskia...here is one point that kills me...where did she
pull her double layout from? I just cant figure why now she has
managed to pull out a big skill like this...after all it was her
weak bars routine that helped keep her out of the medals at Barcelona..
why not use the skill back then...or is was it just a classic case
of hoping to ride out her name and get the top scores anyway...
either way very impressive at such a late point in her career.

Anyone remember who else uses the smae music as Roza Galiyeva...
oh yeah...doesn't Monica Martin of Spain use a variation of the
same music...

Speaking of music...anyone have any idea how long elena grosheva had
to work with with and improvise with the floor ex music she used
after leaving her tape at home...wonder if she got the tape from
gutsu who has used that music in the past...

Anyone have any insights on the rules for vault deductions...i think
its a bit harsh to deduct so much of a score if the wrong vault number
is flash...these are judges and should be skilled enought to judge
any given vault at any given time...sure i agree that they will
be able to pick the vault appart if they know what is coming but
i think the rule is to harsh. AFter all correct me if i am wrong but
with any of the other apparatus the athlete can change the routine
in mid course to upgrade or water down with out getting a deduction.

Comments have been made about elfi's commenting before but I really
like
her style of commenting ....basically she calls them as she sees them
for better or for worse...

feedback and answers to any of the above question will be appreciated.

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:48:48 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Altanta Invite

Hey All,
Just a few comments on the Atlanta invite..
Marinescu(sp.): very good, clean, but, typically Romanian, won because of her
consistency. I felt bad about her vaulting troubles, but what changed the
judges minds?

As for choreography...The former Russians were lovely, esp. Galiava. Piskun's
was nice, but, like they said, was not performed with alot of emotion.
Grosheva's improv was very nice and looked rather well-rehearsed. Mohini's
wasn't bad, but Katie Teft could use some work - it just looked kinda empty.
However, Teft was GREAT on beam - watch for her to medel soon there...Bogie
looked better that I thought she would - her difficulty was great.

AND: the side-Rulfova on beam was UNBELIEVABLE..what do you guys think it's
value will be? (Maybe they'll creat an F)!!
Anne
PS: NBC's coverage wasn't half bad - actually, it was much better than usual.
The Georgia Dome is great - Atlanta looks ready for the world!!

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:06:35 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Full Twisting Pak Salto

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Full Twisting Pak Salto
Date: 95-12-02 18:04:17 EST

Level 10 Danae Phillips (National Academy of Artistic, Washington) does a
great full twisting pak salto on bars. She was the 17+ National Bars Champ at
JO Nationals and was 7th AA.

Jessica

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:17:01 -0800
From: ***@ACCESSNV.COM
Subject: Re: Atlanta invite comments


> (sidenote here...have you ever heard
> the commentators say any athlete has less than a 4.0? I just think
> its funny to always here they have a 4.0!)
>

MOST gymnasts do have a 4.0 or at least at 3.5 or higher. It just proves
that gymnastics develops the mind as well as the body.

Greg

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:49:56 -0500
From: ***@YORKU.CA
Subject: AGI

I enjoyed today's coverage of the AGI (as well as Subway; I hope some
of you got to see it). I just wanted to clarify the name of Teza's new skill
on beam. Anne called it a side rulfova; I would call it a full-twisting
Yurchenko Loop, since that's what it is. Yurchenko used to do "just" a side
ff to hip circle. I think that's a D already, so the full-twisting version
(let's call it a Teza) must be an E.
It is impossible, btw, that Grosheva made up that floor routine as
she went along. That was the same music and choreography that she used in
Hamilton the previous week. Okay, so it is possible that the music was left
back in Russia, but it was definitely not the first time she had done that
routine.
Bogi's bar routine was amazing! She certainly has proven that you
don't have to be a little girl to do gymnastics. She also showed that being
tall shouldn't stop you from generating a lot of swing on UB. At this rate,
she could definitely challenge for an AA medal next year. What do others
think about this? I also think that if she's this good in her comeback, Kim
Zmeskal should do great as well. Kim was always physically stronger than
Svetlana, and if Svetlana has learned new skills at her age, I see no reason
why Kim can't as well.
Btw, someone asked about Mohini's bars score. I don't think she
would have started from a 10, as she missed the handstand on both her uprise
(no connection bonus for the Gienger), and her straddle back. I figure she
started from a 9.8 (it was competition 3 right) and with her somewhat loose
form included, the score would seem about right.
Chris.

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:52:45 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Altanta Invite

I was wondering why Bogi is permitted to train alongside Mohini in
Houston, with the same coach, but competes for another country. How can
gymnasts representing two different countries train together, in the same
gym, with the same coach?

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:58:30 -0700
From: ***@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU
Subject: Re: Atlanta invite comments


> Svetlana Boginskia...here is one point that kills me...where did she
> pull her double layout from? I just cant figure why now she has
> managed to pull out a big skill like this...after all it was her
> weak bars routine that helped keep her out of the medals at Barcelona..
> why not use the skill back then...or is was it just a classic case
> of hoping to ride out her name and get the top scores anyway...
> either way very impressive at such a late point in her career.
>
Two words: dowel grips.
Sveta, when she was training at Round Lake, had always used bare
hands on bars. With dowel grips, an actual "hook" is formed with the bar,
and this gives the gymnast more grip and more confidence to swing bigger,
higher, etc. When she started training in the U.S., she switched to dowel
grips. Alexadrianov encouraged it, I think.
Personally, I really think that some of the Romanian team members
would be much better off by switching to dowel grips. They're not for
everyone, but they can *really* help.

> Anyone have any insights on the rules for vault deductions...i think
> its a bit harsh to deduct so much of a score if the wrong vault number
> is flash...these are judges and should be skilled enought to judge
> any given vault at any given time...sure i agree that they will
> be able to pick the vault appart if they know what is coming but
> i think the rule is to harsh. AFter all correct me if i am wrong but
> with any of the other apparatus the athlete can change the routine
> in mid course to upgrade or water down with out getting a deduction.
>
I believe the gymnasts have only been required to flash vault
numbers since around 1980. Ron Gallimore, considered in my mind one of
the all-time "mega-vaulters", used to decided halfway through his run
which vault he would actually perform!
There was a problem where there was a question in the judges'
minds which vault the gymnast had actually performed vs. the one they
intended to perform. This was more relevant in the days when fewer
Yurchenko vaults were being performed. For instance, with some gymnasts,
it was very hard to see whether a vault she had performed was a tucked
Cuervo, a tucked barani or a tucked front 1/2 out. What starting values
do the judges deduct from then? I'll bet that if Podkopayeva's and
Khorkina's vaultas are popularized, they'll be a bunch of questions like
that.
The custom of "flashing" the vault numbers also helped judges
expect what was about to be performed. Since judging a split-second event
is hard enough anyway, it seems to me that it would be much easier for
the judges to judge the actual vault execution rather than all of them
scratching their heads going "What was _that_?!!" when they weren't sure
which vault had been performed.
The deduction to me seems to be an appropriate measure. It's also
much less harsh than giving a zero to a gymnast who has signaled to the
head judge but has not been given a green light on the scoreboard....

Cara

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:25:41 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: AGI

>It is impossible, btw, that Grosheva made up that floor routine as
>she went along. That was the same music and choreography that she used in
>Hamilton the previous week. Okay, so it is possible that the music was left
>back in Russia, but it was definitely not the first time she had done that
>routine.

The athletes who competed in both the World Challenge and the Atlanta Invite
came straight from Hamilton to Atlanta. Therefore, when Elena Grosheva left
her music back in Russia she did that prior to the World Challenge. So it's
only logical that she'd use the same substitute at both events.

I don't think that anyone suggested that she actually improved the routine as
she went along (I haven't seen the broadcast so I don't know what the
comentators said). The overall precision of gymnastics doesn't really allow
for that sort of thing.

From what I saw of her in Sabae, and then Atlanta, she picked music with a
similar tempo (both Bendicte Everad and Milosovici have used it in the past
-- it's a common piece on a lot of generic floor music tapes so it wouldn't
have been hard for her to find) and salvaged as much of her current routine
as seemed to fit --I'd estimate about 50% -- and then pieced in dance moves
from old routines to fill in the rest.

It's very similar to what Boginskaya did at an exhibition in 1993 (shown on
TBS -- some of you may remember it) where she forgot her music. They said she
"improvised" it but the dance was all culled from former Bogie sets (mostly a
1990 routine to "Bolero" that she never performed in the USA).

This is the kind situation where the strong dance training of the Russians
really shows, as Grosheva was able to pull it together fairly well with the
short amount of time and preperation she had avaliable (not to mention a
troublesome foot injury). Most people spend years just hoping to get a
routine looking that polished, but it's nothing compared to Lena's "real" new
routine (done to Natalia Frolova's old music) which is *superb*.

Oh and on another note, the full twisting Yurchenko loop done by Elvire Teza
(FRA) *is*, or soon will be, named after her since she became the first to
perform it at a Worlds or Olympics in Sabae.

--Susan

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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 01:51:17 -0500
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: USA TV: ABC in 1996

ABC has announced it's tenative "Wide World of Sports" schedule for 1996 and
here's where gymnastics fits in (culled from the ABC Sports area on AOL) ...

Remember that this is all *very* subject to changes
(omissions/additions/etc.) so check your local listings for times, dates,
and all further info!

February 3
4:30PM-6PM EST
1995 Worlds from Sabae, Japan (M&W EF)
NOTE: This is what the posted schedule said but I have heard that it will be
women only and approximately 30 minutes worth of coverage

April 20
4:30PM-6PM EST
1996 Worlds from San Juan, Puerto Rico (W EF)

April 27
4:30PM-6PM EST
1996 Worlds from San Juan, Puerto Rico (M EF)

June 15
4:30PM-6PM EST
1996 Women's Europeans from Birmingham, England (AA)

June 22
4:30PM-6PM EST
1996 Women's Europeans from Birmingham, England (EF)

That's all folks. Pretty slim pickings I'd say.

-- Susan

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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 01:15:56 -0600
From: ***@EDEN.COM
Subject: Dance skills

As far as I know, there is only 1 E dance skill, a 2/1 hop with one leg
extended. A 4/1 has been valued only as a D. I did know a gymnast who was
able to perform a 4/1 turn to immediate forward scale, extended leg on the
first two revolutions.

It seems to me unfair that skills that only male dances are traditionally
trained to perform are those with the high values. My classical ballet
knowledge is not very extensive, but when did *females* do multiple turning
jumps? I know they are quite capable of performing them, but did they ever
do so?

Does anyone have a tape of the Atlanta invite? I'd love a copy! (Will pay
for tape, time, postage, etc.....) My VCR's OLD. Alas all my gymnastics
tapes were left behind when I last moved--almost 200 hours of national and
international meets from 1987--1994. Sigh....

[I saw the 2/1 in at the '90 Europeans. Good meet, though it is interesting
to note that Onodi had essentially the same routine to different music for 2
years. But then again, if you have four passes and the same dance combo's,
there isn't necessarily a great deal of time for new choreography!]

Rich

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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 03:37:12 -0500
From: ***@PIPELINE.COM
Subject: <No subject given>

Cc:
Subject: Re: Atlanta invite comments

On Sat, Dec 2, 1995 5:12:25 PM at asuarez wrote:

>Svetlana Boginskia...here is one point that kills me...where did she
>pull her double layout from? I just cant figure why now she has
>managed to pull out a big skill like this...after all it was her
>weak bars routine that helped keep her out of the medals at Barcelona..
>

Grips. Didn't use them before, does now.

Mara

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 2 Dec 1995 to 3 Dec 1995
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