GYMN-L Digest - 1 Apr 1996 to 2 Apr 1996
There are 16 messages totalling 622 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. The pressure on Dominique Moceanu
2. duel CRO-HUN
3. Reply to:Dominque Moceanu
4. TV Alert (SE Texas only)
6. Follow-up on Clip Art
7. GYMN-L Collegiate Update v. 1, no. 25
8. Garlfar Andrews
9. WAG: Bela, Nunno, Hill, etc.
10. Dom & Garlfar
11. Larissa Fontaine
12. USA coaches
13. Aerobic vs strength and power training
14. KIM ZMESKAL (2)
15. "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes"
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 06:51:30 -0500
Subject: The pressure on Dominique Moceanu
I really don't think that Dominique has done enough yet to be considered a
gold-medal hopeful in Atlanta. Granted, she's extremely talented, but we
must not all forget about the other gymnasts in the world. I think the
media should've have learned something from 1992 when they touted Kim
Zmeskal as the favorite in Barcelona. While it was a legitamate prediction,
the pressure on her was just too much. I know alot of other things were
involved, but you cannot believe that the competition she had in Barcelona
was not partly the result of the expectation of the American people. I have
a feeling they are going to the same thing with Dominique. Maybe things
will work out better for her...I hope it does, for her sake. But I think we
all need to look at ourselves and ask how we would feel if we had that kind
of pressure on us...
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:41:03 +0100
Subject: duel CRO-HUN
You already received two copies of results from duel between men`s
national teams of Hungaria and Croatia. The duel was in Osijek
(Croatia) home town of Aleksei Demjanov. As you saw Hungaria won
only 0.05 infornt of Croatia. They competed after the European championship
team formula - 3 exercises per apparatus and all 3 scores count. This
formula is very tricky as any fall or big mistake means there is no
possibility to overpress bad score. I was there as a neutral judge and
must say I saw a lot of good gymnastics and also some big errors, but
they are going to EC in the begining of May.
For Croatia competed Demjanov, Krce, Solar, Goricki, Music and Jovanovic.
For Hungaria competed Supola, Fajkusz (he recovered after he broke his
Achille tendon just prior the WC in Sabae), Szabo, Detroi, Mravecz and Peter.
The results in previous file are in olympic order.
Highlihts of the competitions were:
Floor: Demjanov - double layout, front layout, front layout, front layout
with 1/1 turn, Gogoladze to Gogoladze
Pommels: Supola and Fajkusz they both showed exercises with 4 E with
multiple stoecklies on one pommel, Russian wendeswing on one pommel
Magyar travels, and Supola also did Magyar spindle 1/1 in one
Rings: Demjanov rings are incredible, perhaps the second best at the moment
in Europe just after the Chechi (ITA), with very clean elements
of strenght (inverted crosses with no deduction!) and he has
also D dismount double layout with 1/1 turn (here is point for
him instead for Chechi). Supola`s routine was also very good
and his dismount triple was very high, he separeted his legs a
little bit, but as this is up to now the most difficult dismount
seen from rings there should be no deduction for this !! People
of the FIG should think how to benefit such an element 0.2
for E part is not enought.
Pbars: perhapse the veakest apparatus - demjanov showed two Tipelts,
with double piked for the end and good execution. Hungarains
almost lost the duel here as they all fall from the apparatus.
Sasa Solar showed very clean execution but not so very difficult
exercise but the score is good.
Hbar: this was the best apparatus, with a lot of good and difficult
elements. Demjanov - Kovacs twice, double double for dismount,
Mravecs - Gaylord 2, one arm gienger, Double layout with 1/1 turn
Supola - tkacev,tkacev, ginger, quast, quast to one arm, gienger
and triple for dismount (but jumped forward on his hands),
Fajkusz - Kovacs twice, double tucked with 2/1 dismount.
This is short report what is going on in central Europe.
With best regards from Ivan
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:27:28 -0600
Subject: Re: Reply to:Dominque Moceanu
Hello, fellow Gymners...
I do not post often, but Garlfar Andrews' post has angered me enough
First of all, where does he have the right to make all of these
accusations? What are your sources, Garlfar? Since I am a journalist, one
of the first things that you must do is establish sources, and above all
the credibility of these sources. Strong accusations like the ones that
you made would probably land me in court for libel had I published what
you did in a newspaper.
Secondly, I must wonder if you only think that gymnasts are in it for
the money. If you do, I think you miss the point that so many young
people get: it is fun.
Third. Coaching what the gymnasts will say and act like? Come on, give
me a break. I know from personal experience that that is not true. Maybe
in Shannon's case, but that is it.
Fourth, I think it presumptuous to claim that you know more than
anyone else on this subject. Who is to say that Steve Nunno or Bela
Karolyi don't subscribe to Gymn. Can you really, with a straight face,
claim that you know more than them or for that matter, any other coach in
the nation or world?
Fifth, and finally, the recent posts have been getting rather hot in
the language used. We members of Gymn must remember that there may be
young children who read these posts. Let's just try to clean it up, if
only for them and the respect of our fellow members.
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:17:34 -0500
Subject: TV Alert (SE Texas only)
For those of you in the Houston/Galveston area:
The local ABC affiliate (Channel 13) will have a story on their 6:00pm
news broadcast about a gymnast. They showed a little footage, but never
mentioned the name. From what I caught, it looked like Dominique
Moceanu, but with all that tumbling I really couldn't tell.
Surya Bonaly sucks. Surya Bonaly sucks. Surya Bonaly sucks. Surya sucks!
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:24:31 -0500
I want to apologize for the last line of my post regarding Dom possibly
being on Channel 13 in Houston tonight. I constructed that line in my
signature file as a joke for someone and totally forgot that it was there.
I was quite horrified to see it there when my message arrived!
Sorry, especially to you Surya fans (if there are any!). Sorry.
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:50:00 EST
Subject: Follow-up on Clip Art
Ah, the benefits of being a reviewer of computer software -- I
promised to post a report on Innovation Advertising & Design's AdArt
Sports CD (802-879-1164). The CD is a little pricey, but does have
some excellent sports images. Of course, the gymn images are few, but
what the ones they have look great (all are described below). Plus,
there are a couple of gymn-adaptable images of ice skaters and dancers
The womens' graphic images seriously look like they're line art versions of
the poses made famous by IG's posters, right down to the leaotard
design and hair styles. Silivas' split, Zmeskal's reverse
planche, a split leap that looks familiar (don't recall who off hand).
Then there are the silhouettes: Boginskaya's leap, Szabo on beam, and
another split leap that looks familiar (don't recall who off hand).
Equal time is not given to
the men's events -- only one image each of the rings and Pbar is included.
There are maybe six other images total which you can adapt to gymn
If anyone would like to see, ahem, an example that uses this clip art,
you can contact me by e-mail.
Hope this helps...
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:14:06 -0800
Subject: GYMN-L Collegiate Update v. 1, no. 25
GYMN-L's Collegiate Update
Volume 1, no. 25
Apr. 1, 1996
1. UCLA vs. BYU (W)
*****Item number 1.25.1*****
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 96 12:20:52 PST
Subject: UCLA vs. BYU (W)
UCLA Women's Gymnastics Update
UCLA junior Leah Homma broke the school record in the all-around with
a 39.700 performance last Saturday at BYU. Homma bettered the previous
mark of 39.600, set in 1995 by Kareema Marrow.
From the beginning of the meet, it was apparent that Homma was going
to have a stellar competition. On the Bruins' first rotation, the uneven
bars, she scored a 9.950 and earned a perfect 10.0 score from one judge.
The 10.0 marked the second time in the Bruins' last two meets that Homma
has received a perfect mark from one judge on bars. Her 9.950 was the
highest bars score of the night. Homma has now placed first on bars in
five consecutive meets and in seven of the Bruins' 10 meets.
The three-time All-American from Toronto, Ontario scored another
9.950, this time on vault, in the Bruins' second rotation to again place
first. Homma closed the meet with a career-best 9.900 on floor to place
first and another 9.900 on beam to place second.
Homma's performance helped lead the Bruins to a season-best 195.725.
BYU placed second with a score of 194.600.
Also having a career meet was freshman Kiralee Hayashi from Kailua,
Hawaii. Hayashi broke the 39 point barrier in the all-around for the first
time with a career-best 39.100 to place second. She scored another
career-best with a 9.800 on vault.
Lisa Hiley (9.725 on vault) and Luisa Portocarrero (9.900 on beam -
second place) also scored career-highs in the meet.
Head coach Valorie Kondos' Bruins will have one week off before
competing in the 1996 NCAA West Regionals, which will be held at UCLA's
Pauley Pavilion at 6 pm on Saturday, April 13. Tickets for the Regionals
are one sale now at UCLA's Central Ticket Office by calling (310)
Gymnast V UB BB FX AA
Corinne Chee 9.825 9.7
Susie Erickson 9.65 9.65
Dee Fischer 9.85 8.35 9.675
Kristin Harmell 9.6
Kiralee Hayashi 9.8 9.7 9.8 9.8 39.1
Lisa Hiley 9.725
Leah Homma 9.95 9.95 9.9 9.9 39.7
Luisa Portocarrero 9.9
Karin Silvestri 9.675
Amy Smith 9.825
Stella Umeh 9.725 9.8 8.75
Team 49.05 48.7 49.075 48.9 195.725
Gymnast V UB BB FX AA
Angela Andersen 9.675 9.05 9.8 9.9 38.425
Janene Christensen 9.825 9.25
Cristen Cosgrave 9.725 9.525 9.75 9.875 38.875
Liz Crandall 9.525 9.275 9.925 9.85 38.575
Natalie Emig 9.725 9.825 9.800
Leah Jacobs 9.25
Erin Johnson 9.625
Kelli Rose 9.8 9.8 9.7 9.7 39.1
Jessica Young 9.775
Team 48.8 47.575 49.0 49.225 194.6
The "GYMN-L Collegiate Update" is a twice-weekly collection of news on the
collegiate gymnastics scene. Back issues may be found on the Web at
HTTP://www-leland.stanford.edu/~poser/GCU/ or by anonymous FTP to
ftp.cac.psu.edu (directory /pub/gymn/Collegiate-Update).
To make a submission to the _GYMN-L Collegiate Update_, send email to
***@leland.stanford.edu (NOT directly to the GYMN-L list) with
"Collegiate Update" or "GCU" in the subject header.
Please send any replies, comments, or suggestions to the same address.
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:04:02 -0500
Subject: Garlfar Andrews
I just wanted to tell everyone that it is CLEARLY obvious that this Garlfar
character is only writing these
pointless, lengthy letters to arouse
anger in all of us. We should ignore any anti-gymnastics remarks he makes
because if we don't we would be arguing against him all day, probably much to
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:04:05 -0600
Subject: WAG: Bela, Nunno, Hill, etc.
I think that there are lot of rumors floating around about coaches. Some
come from jealousy, some from fact. I wish that if people have facts that
they would point them out. This forum would be an excellent place for
it. It might make books like "little girls..." less shocking. We all know that
there are things which just "pop up" and only later find out the truth about
them (ex. What happened to Mukihina, Bitcherova and Silivas' age, etc.)
I just wish that at least here we could be honest.
As for Hill gymnastics, I think, based on what I saw at Birmingham, that
she's great. I don't KNOW anything bad about her, but she could have
problems with some aspect of her coaching. Luckily, she's not a
high profile international coach with the media. If she was, I am sure that '
something (truth or lie) would be said about her.
As for Nunno and Bela. They do achieve success, and I think that makes
for lots of media attention. I think that the scrutiny that they
are subjected to does mean that we just hear more about them. You don't hear
Mary Lou talk bad about Bela, so perhaps when Shannon leaves gymnastics
we'll be able to hear what she has to say when she no longer can't see the
trees from the forest, good or bad.
BTW: I just have one comment about Bela. I know he gets results, but how can
he honestly be mad that his gymnasts don't win the big meets when they make
mistakes? Both Nadia and Kim had problems in 1980 and 1992 and he still blames
the system. It doesn't make sense to me. They tried, they made mistakes,
and its over. You can't rewrite the history books.
Personally, if every gymnast was completly healthy in the US right now, I'd
still say that the big top three are (1) Dawes, (2) Miller, and (3) Moceanu.
P.S. Its been said that the media researches things and tries to be objective
about gymnasts, but I *really* have to wonder what made the NBC commentator
ask Moceanu "Do you think that you were born for greatness in this sport?".
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:34:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Dom & Garlfar
I have just one question after reading Garlfar's post, he writes:
>Bela Karolyi has a known PROVEN history of abusing his charges
>for his own gains...
I was just wondering if Garlfar can provide me with the case citation of this
"lawsuit"... I mean, if he has been proven to be a child abuser, I would be
correct in assuming that he was charged and convicted for it right?? That
would be what most normal people would take the word PROVEN to mean. If you
plan on posting messages like that one, I would hope that in the future you
will substantiate your claims rather than making vague and, who knows, maybe
completely false accusations.
And while we are on the subject, while I am not a major fan of Karolyi's, I
have a problem with the subject of these gymnasts being forced to stay with
coaches who are "mean" to them. Even if we make the assumption that these
girls have absolutely no minds of their own (which I feel is a serious stretch)
so they cant make the decision to leave, where are the PARENTS?? As I have not
heard that any of the current elites are orphans w/no adult supervision, I
think that most, if not all of the blame should fall on the parents for
allowing their children to stay at a gym, IF in fact the coach is "abusive".
Why blame a coach for his/her methods, if the parent is willing to send their
child there, then who are we, outside observers that we are, to complain.
Sorry this turned out so long, once I get on my soapbox, its hard to step down.
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:35:38 CDT
Subject: Larissa Fontaine
Does anyone know what's going on with Larissa Fontaine?
***************ROLL TIDE ROLL***************
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:36:35 PST
Subject: USA coaches
I have always said it and I will say it again.
**Kelli Hill and Mary Lee Tracy are the best coaches I have ever seen!**
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:51:36 MDT
Subject: Aerobic vs strength and power training
It is interesting to see this controversy come alive again. Let me
add my two cents and a few references. A gymnast should NOT train
aerobically when trying to increase or maintain her strength and
power performance. It has been shown that training both aerobically
and anaerobically/strength results in attenuated strength and power
development. Moreover, the attenuation is quite long and can be
quite large. Of course, the length and magnitude of the effects
depend on the nature of training undertaken. It has been shown the
weight lifters lost peak squat strength in only two days a week of
aerobic dance, that sprinters lose peak torque at high speeds, that
sprinters who train long distances get slower and their limb speeds
decrease, and that the effects appear to be more extreme when
strength athletes train aerobically than vice-versa although
endurance athletes who lift heavy weights also show attenuated
endurance performance. Interestingly, a culture basically brought up
on the idea of an "aerobic-base" and so forth find it very hard to
swallow that an aerobic-base is a myth for strength and power
athletes (i.e., gymnasts). An anecdote that has been used for some
years to demonstrate this problem is that of a good marathoner who
had a vertical jump of around 10 inches while training hard for the
marathon got injured. Because the marathon runner could not train
the normal long distances he had been accustomed too, his vertical
jump actually increased. And, he did not start training the vertical
jump. This amplifies the point that the training of long
distance/endurance type activities is not just taking time away from
training strength and power, the results of the endurance training
actually impact the strength and power by attenuating them.
An aerobic base is extraordinarily important for long distance
endurance athletes. But, aerobics has been vastly overrated as a
means of reducing fat. It appears that high intensity anaerobic work
coupled with weight training is much better at reducing body fat than
long slow distance type aerobic activity. It is not uncommon to find
people (particularly females) who run marathons and train for them
quite heavily and still carry 18% body fat. Moreover, it is also
common to see women who do aerobic work religiously in the name of
weight reduction see no results in spite of doing aerobic type
activity more than 2 hours per day.
MacDougall and Sale (as I recall - long term memory) indicate
that the most important predictor of "endurance" in work bouts of
high intensity lasting 2 minutes or less is maximal strength - not
oxygen uptake. In spite of providing this along with the data to
coaches for almost 15 years now, I still find it a very hard sell to
coaches. Finally, although "cross training" has been found to
be beneficial in some settings. No one has been able to unravel the
question of whether or not it is simply resting the normally worked
limbs or systems that results in the improved performance. Moreover,
if you ask people exactly what cross training is, you get a variety
of answers. Some consider it training to enhance a "lactate sink"
while others think that working multiple metabolic systems either
affords the body another means of energy production or rests the most
severely stressed system. As the athlete becomes better and better,
you actually don't want to foul up their training by adding new
demands that are not precisely focused at their performance issues.
Gymnasts can perform intervals to enhance their ability to complete
routines. Our own research has shown that interval training can
often better prepare gymnasts physiologically to perform their
routines than the actual routine (particularly floor exercise). This
is because the athlete who cannot perform the routine usually
crashes and does not continue the routine. Although aerobic training
and cross training have their adherents, I no longer consider this
an issue that is even controversial. The data are quite clear.
Please see the accompanying references.
Wm A. Sands, Ph.D.
University of Utah
-------------- Enclosure number 1 ----------------
Temporary group for searching
Sorted by: Reference #
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Last Search run on 2 Apr 1996, at 11:29
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Contains 15 references
Listing Created 2 Apr 1996, at 11:29
116. Hickson,RC (1980): Interference of strength development by simultaneously
training for strength and endurance. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 45, 255-263.
[CONFLICT; ENDURANCE; INTERFERENCE; LOWER EXTREMITY; METABOLISM; STR...]
132. Sands,B (1985): Conditioning for gymnastics: A dilemma. Technique 5(3),
[AEROBIC; ANAEROBIC; BODY COMPOSITION; CONDITIONING; CONFLICT; INTER...]
2033. Ratzin Jackson,CG; Dickinson,AL; Ringel,SP (1990): Skeletal muscle fiber
area alterations in two opposing modes of resistance-exercise training in
the same individual. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 61(3-4), 37-41.
[CONFLICT; FIBER TYPE; MUSCLE; STRENGTH]
2073. Johns,DP (1991): Understanding the problem of role accumulation and
conflict in national team athletes. S.P.O.R.T.S. 11(4), 1-6.
[CONFLICT; ROLE; SPORT PSYCHOLOGY]
2202. Stone,MH; Wilson,D; Rozenek,R; Newton,H (1984): Anaerobic capacity. Nat.
Strength Conditioning Assoc. J. 5(6), 40,63-65.
[ANAEROBIC; CONFLICT; INTERFERENCE; INTERVAL TRAINING; POWER; STRENG...]
2738. Schmidtbleicher,D (1992): Training for power events. In: Strength and
power in sport. (Ed: Komi,PV) Blackwell Scientific Publications, Oxford,
[BODYBUILDING; CONCENTRIC; CONFLICT; EMG; HYPERTROPHY; ISOMETRIC; PE...]
2743. Shealy,MJ; Callister,R; Dudley,GA; Fleck,SJ (1992): Human torque velocity
adaptations to sprint, endurance, or combined modes of training. Amer.
Jour. Sports Med. 20(5), 581-586.
[BIOMECHANICS; CONFLICT; ENDURANCE; POWER; RUNNING; SPRINTING; STREN...]
2780. Arnett,MG (1993): A review of concurrent strength and endurance training.
S.P.O.R.T.S. 13((2)), 1-6.
[CONFLICT; ENDURANCE; METHODOLOGY; POWER; STRENGTH; TRAINING]
3099. Collins,MA; Snow,TK (1993): Are adaptations to combined endurance and
strength training affected by the sequence of training. J. Sports Sci.
[AEROBIC; CONFLICT; PERIODIZATION; STRENGTH; WEIGHT TRAINING]
3116. Hennessy,LC; Watson,AWS (1994): The interference effects of training for
strength and endurance simultaneously. J. Str. and Cond. Res. 8(1), 12-
<This study compared the effects of three preseason training program...>
<<1. Very similar to Hickson's study.>>
[CONFLICT; ENDURANCE; INTERFERENCE; POWER; PRESEASON; SPEED OF MOVEM...]
3464. Sale,DG; Jacobs,I; MacDougall,JD; Garner,S (1990): Comparison of two
regimens of concurrent strength and endurance training. Med. Sci. Sports
Exer. 22(3), 348-356.
[CONFLICT; ENDURANCE; STRENGTH; TRAINING]
3507. Goluch,A (1981): Changes in the mechanical properties of muscles during
training. In: Biomechanics VII-B. Vol. 3-B. (Eds: Morecki,A; Fidelus,K;
Kedzior,K; Wit,A) University Park Press, Baltimore, MD, 386-391.
<<1. twitch times were shorter as you trained more intensely, ie ju...>>
[CONFLICT; ISOMETRIC; MECHANICAL CHARACTERISTICS; MUSCLE; POWER; RAT...]
4090. Kyrolainen,H; Komi,PV (1995): The function of neuromuscular system in
maximal stretch-shortening cycle exercises: Comparison between power- and
endurance-trained athletes. J. Electromyogr. Kinesiol. 5(1), 15-25.
[CONFLICT; EMG; ENDURANCE; JUMPING; PLYOMETRICS; POWER; STRETCH-CONT...]
4095. Kraemer,WJ; Patton,JF; Gordon,SE; Harman,EA; Deschenes,MR; Reynolds,K;
Newton,RU; Triplett,NT; Dziados,JE (1995): Compatibility of high-
intensity strength and endurance training on hormonal and skeletal muscle
adaptations. J. Appl. Physiol. 78(3), 976-989.
[ANAEROBIC; ANAEROBIC POWER; CONFLICT; CORTISOL; ENDURANCE; HORMONE;...]
4295. Kyrolainen,H; Komi,PV (1994): Neuromuscular performance of lower limbs
during voluntary and reflex activity in power- and endurance-trained
athletes. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 69, 233-239.
[CONFLICT; EMG; FORCE-TIME CURVE; STRENGTH; STRENGTH AND ENDURANCE C...]
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:19:53 -0800
Subject: KIM ZMESKAL
Well, I know that the subject is kind of
old but I hadn't really ever expressed my feelings toward her ending
her come-back. I always defended her, whenever someone would say that
she couldn't do it, I always said something. I think that she could
have made the team but I also want her to be happy and if training for
the Olympics didn't make her happy than I think that quiting was the
best thing to do.
At first I was really angry at her but I
relized that if I'm as loyal a fan as I say I am than it should just be
enough for her to be happy. A role model shouldn't be based on how many
gold medals you win but the personal battles you overcome to win them.
I hope that people won't remember her as a quiter but as someone who
knew when it was time to face reality. Maybe she will never be the
Olympic Champion but she can rest assured that she will always be
America's first all-around world champion....
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 14:38:08 -0500
Subject: Re: "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes"
Has anyone seen the article on the same subject in April's Shape Magazine?
On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Jenny wrote:
> I just read someone's request (I think it was Vicki?) about a 60 Minutes
> episode on "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes". I read that book and I found it
> very interesting. I would also like to have a copy of that if anyone has
> Please e-mail me in private. Thanks.
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:04:16 -0500
Subject: Re: KIM ZMESKAL
I would just like to ask: under what basis do you think she could
have made the team? Since she made her "comeback" we only saw her do FX,
and yes her double layout was amazing, but one skill alone does not a
comeback make. We have no idea what her routines on the other events
were like in training. Even if she had regained the same difficutly as
she had at Barcelona, she would still be way behind the rest of the
field, given the current code.
Yes I was hoping that Kim would at the very least try to compete
again, but since we didn't get to see her there is no way that someone
can say that she could have made it and she just decided she didn't want
to. It's possible that she stopped because she didn't think she could do
it. I can't say for sure, but that's my guess. However, before the
comeback was called off I wouldn't have made any claim that she would
succeed because I didn't have any actual AA performances to back up such
Many people have been making predictions as to who will make the
Olympic Team etc and we can make these predictions based on what we know
of these gymnasts because we see them compete throughout the year. But
with Kim Zmeskal *no one*, except her teammates and coaches in the gym,
have this type of knowledge to make the claim that she could have made
it. I just want to know exactly why you think she could have made it?
It doesn't seem like she believed this herself.
End of GYMN-L Digest - 2 Apr 1996 - Special issue