GYMN-L Digest - 24 Apr 1995 to 25 Apr 1995

There are 20 messages totalling 886 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Comments on Event Finals (Men) (ps)
  2. NCAA Team Finals (2)
  3. PC Gymnastics
  4. Negativity - a different slant
  5. TITLE IX and gymnastics
  6. Title IX Debate (3)
  7. Mukhina (2)
  8. Title IX and $$
  9. TV alert
 10. TV ALERT
 11. AP report listed in A. J. C.
 12. TITLE IX battle rages
 13. WWW home page
 14. Title IX!!!
 15. mukhina again
 16. Intro Adam

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Apr 1995 21:23:03 -0600
From:    ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Comments on Event Finals (Men) (ps)

I said:
| P-bars was taken by Richard Grace, who recovered from his slow start
| of the night. This was his second consecutive title on pbars.  I
| didn't get to see his routine but I remember that it included a
| massive straddle cut to begin the routine; consecutive giant fulls

Actually, sorry, it's a "Tippelt", not a straddle cut, that is Grace
started on the ends of the pbars, bailed out of the handstand, swung
under the bars, released and swung his legs up and out to circle
around to the back, catch the bar, immediate cast to handstand.
Similar to a Tkatchev.

rh

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 00:20:09 -0400
From:    ***@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: NCAA Team Finals

On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, Adam wrote:

> I couldn't agree with Josh more wholeheartedly.  Title IX is a great idea
> in concept but in reality it just isn't working.  Low revenue athletes,
> such as gymnasts, are losing out so that woman can compete.  A perfect
<snip>
> years.  Take UCLA for example:  They wanted to take away Men's
> gymnastics and replace it with WOMEN'S SOCCER.  Now I don't care what
> anyone says, but thats a bunch a CRAP!!!!!  Kids like me who worked all
> their lives in the hot sweaty confines of the gym basically got their
> colons ripped out by Title IX!!  TITLE IX SUCKS!!!!

Oh, so women who have spent all *their* lives working at their sport don't
deserve the opportunity to participate in college as much as men do?
Women should lose out so that low-rev male athletes can keep their
sport?  Low-rev male athletes are losing out because when athletic
departments decide how to distribute the men's programs' money, they
favor huge football programs (which, as someone pointed out, do *not*
need the number of scholarships they get) over "low-revs".  AD's should
fund men and women equally.  If that means men have to get less money,
that's tough.  Women have *always* gotten less, and we deserve equal
treatment.  And if it means AD's have to pick certain men's sports over
others (questionable, since they could cut the number of football
scholarships by almost half, or at least a third, and besides
scholarships, they have a lot of other expenses that would be saved by
having smaller teams and expenses that are entirely questionable, like
hotels the night before home games), that's the way it's
gotta be.  I don't like the fact that gymnastics is losing so much, but
equal status for women's sports matters more to me.  And I really dislike
that, as usual, women are getting blamed (which is what the "unintended
consequence of Title IX" phrase sounds like to me).  If anything is going
to be blamed, it should be the priorities that give football a privileged
status and the fact that we have this sport with no women's equivalent
that ends up skewing athletic opportunities in favor of men (yes,
football players are *men*.  While there are arguments for which sports
should get what, the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that male
athletes are fungible, and which men get what doesn't matter to me as
much as women athletes getting their fair share).  I probably shouldn't
even get started on the issue of the NFL and NBA paying for their own
minor league, rather than letting the colleges bear all the cost for
athletes who are so obviously there only because it's their only way to
the pros.  And no one even mention the myth that football pays for
itself and every other sport, because the majority of football programs
actually run at a deficit -- they don't even pay for themselves.

Wow, I'm all out of breath...

:)
Adriana

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Apr 1995 22:40:00 PDT
From:    ***@POWERGRID.ELECTRICITI.COM
Subject: Re: PC Gymnastics

>Anyone know of any current programs/games available?


Well, yes. We were introduced to this program briefly at Worlds in Dortmund
and ran a blurb in IG People.

Following is the PR sheet we brought home. Didn't get a demo copy of the
program; don't know anyone with a PC anyway. (Dory, you're a little far
away.)

It ain't a game and it ain't cheap (anyone oversee a big budget?), but I
thought I'd add it to the list anyway.


************************************
GYMNASTICS DATA BASE

Using up to date computing technology, it is possible now to build a modern
data base on artistic gymnastics. Unfortunately the usual data base
programs are not designed to deal with our problem, therefore we decided to
create our own program, combining vocabulary, numeric and graphic
information. There are about 5000 elements in gymnastics, some 2000 more
difficult ones described in the men and women Code of Points. Because of
such an amount of elements, it is neccessery to organise a program and data
in a special way, therefore each problem is dealt with in a special module,
and all modules are joined in the GYM shell.

What can you do with the data base:
        1. You can learn the elements from the Code of Points,
        2. You can test your knowledge,
        3. You can keep records and analysis of the elements performed by a
competitor,
        4. You can keep records and analysis of competitions.

Such a data base can be useful to trainers, gymnasts, parents, sports
teachers, sport reporters etc., irrespective of their previous knowledge.

In order to use the complete basic data base you need a PC AT compatible
computer, 80286 processor, 640 KB RAM (at least 512 KB free), VGA graphic
card (640x480, 16 colours), at least 10 MB free on the hard disc, 3.1/2
(1.44 MB) or 5.1/4 (1.2 MB) floppy disc, a mouse, a B/W or colour screen,
HP 2 laser printer (for picture printing), DOS 3.3.

The demo program and the demo basic data base is available on disc. On your
hard disc create the GYMBASE directory and copy the contents of the floppy
discs. You start the program by typing in EXAMDEMO. With EXAMDEMO you can
test your knowledge on some parts of the Code of points. Till now we
prepared 11 different language bases (Settings and Language command) for
the demo version you can use English, German and French variety. If you
want to command press ALT and highlighted character or point the mouse on
command and click the left mouse. With command Area you set either the
questions from Rings or Theory. Command Testing requires your name, number
of questions you want to answer and time limit (0-no limit). When you press
OK you will receive on the screen first question. Press A, B, C, D or E
depending which answer is correct. You can stop command if you press ECS.

On the second page you can see the analyse of one exercise on parallel bars.

Complete data base with following programs costs 2000 DM ($1450 US):
        GYM SHELL <shell for all modules>
        G ELEMENTS <module to create your own data base>
        G EXAM <module to test the knowledge>
        G ANALYSE <module to analyse exercises and competitons>
G EXAM only = 750 DM ($540 US) and G ANALYSE 1250 DM ($900 US).

Contact:
        m.sc. Ivan Cuk
        Faculty of sport
        Gortanova 22
         61000 Ljubljana
        Slovenia
        tel.: ++ 386 61 1401 077, fax.: ++ 386 61 448148.

***********************************************

Ivan's a nice guy; I made his day telling him I'd had -and liked- Slovenian
beer. (Union, which you can get in Calif. at Trader Joe's. As well as other
yummies.)

BTW, Ivan told me Aljaz Pegan learned "his" release (tucked Gaylord
half-out) because he couldn't catch a regular Gaylord. The concept had been
developed with Blaz Puljic (now at New Mexico) in mind ... anyone remember
if he threw it at NCAAs? As good as Pegan, by any chance?

Okay, enough bandwidth.

Later,
Nancy

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:28:40 UT
From:    ***@MSN.COM
Subject: Re: Negativity - a different slant

>That really CAN be harmful.  Is my
>comment on how 'gymnast A gained weight
and looks fat' really important to
>this list?  NO.

Robin,

I stand my
my earlier comment - but first let me make sure you understand that I'm also
one of the people who 'protects' the gymnasts - I don't like seeing them
flamed either. But I still believe that if we were not talking about girls,
and they were not this age, that commenting on their weight would not be an
issue to the readers, though still inappropriate, nor dangerous. :)

JR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 09:15:15 -0400
From:    ***@PHARM.MED.UPENN.EDU
Subject: TITLE IX and gymnastics

I can see from the two posts following that the tact that the coaches want
to take is very
legitimate and appropriate.  "unintended consequence" is directed at the
administrators.  Title IX is supposed to give opportunities to women, which
the men endorse.  But they don't want to be cut to create proportionality -
which is not required by title IX (this is not a quota law, but an equal
opportunity law -- a very large [legal] difference).  They also can't
afford to have the football programs against them, because they are the
money - whether consumers or producers, they are the money.  So, how do you
word something so that neither group sees you as a threat, but welcomes
your sport?  I would like to hear some suggestions on position statements,
rather than bashing their efforts.  They are stuck between a rock and a
hard place, and really don't need someone putting a ceiling over them.  It
is not appropriate for women to move forward at the expense of sports that
have been supportive in the past and continue to be supportive, and to be
honest at the many meetings I have attended regarding the formation of
women's sports opportunities (by women's groups) none of them desire to
have the non-revenue, small sports cut.  They all agree that it would be
stupid to alienate those that are willing to help - when legislation is
proposed it is being written for both sexes and all small sports.  To be
honest men's gymnastics is probably one of the most respected by AD's,
presidents, etc. for thier intelligent and respectful approach.  As
supporters of this sport, we should demonstrate the same qualities.  ALL
OLYMPIC sports need to be at the collegiate level, not just men or women -
ALL, lets work together to protect olympic sports and their athletes
opportunities.

any suggestions for wording on a position statement will be forwarded to
the appropriate people.

Mayland




>On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, Adam wrote:
>
>> I couldn't agree with Josh more wholeheartedly.  Title IX is a great idea
>> in concept but in reality it just isn't working.  Low revenue athletes,
>> such as gymnasts, are losing out so that woman can compete.  A perfect
><snip>
>> years.  Take UCLA for example:  They wanted to take away Men's
>> gymnastics and replace it with WOMEN'S SOCCER.  Now I don't care what
>> anyone says, but thats a bunch a CRAP!!!!!  Kids like me who worked all
>> their lives in the hot sweaty confines of the gym basically got their
>> colons ripped out by Title IX!!  TITLE IX SUCKS!!!!

>Wow, I'm all out of breath...
>
>:)
>Adriana
>
>Oh, so women who have spent all *their* lives working at their sport don't
>deserve the opportunity to participate in college as much as men do?
>Women should lose out so that low-rev male athletes can keep their
>sport?  Low-rev male athletes are losing out because when athletic
>departments decide how to distribute the men's programs' money, they
>favor huge football programs (which, as someone pointed out, do *not*
>need the number of scholarships they get) over "low-revs".  AD's should
>fund men and women equally.  If that means men have to get less money,
>that's tough.  Women have *always* gotten less, and we deserve equal
>treatment.  And if it means AD's have to pick certain men's sports over
>others (questionable, since they could cut the number of football
>scholarships by almost half, or at least a third, and besides
>scholarships, they have a lot of other expenses that would be saved by
>having smaller teams and expenses that are entirely questionable, like
>hotels the night before home games), that's the way it's
>gotta be.  I don't like the fact that gymnastics is losing so much, but
>equal status for women's sports matters more to me.  And I really dislike
>that, as usual, women are getting blamed (which is what the "unintended
>consequence of Title IX" phrase sounds like to me).  If anything is going
>to be blamed, it should be the priorities that give football a privileged
>status and the fact that we have this sport with no women's equivalent
>that ends up skewing athletic opportunities in favor of men (yes,
>football players are *men*.  While there are arguments for which sports
>should get what, the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that male
>athletes are fungible, and which men get what doesn't matter to me as
>much as women athletes getting their fair share).  I probably shouldn't
>even get started on the issue of the NFL and NBA paying for their own
>minor league, rather than letting the colleges bear all the cost for
>athletes who are so obviously there only because it's their only way to
>the pros.  And no one even mention the myth that football pays for
>itself and every other sport, because the majority of football programs
>actually run at a deficit -- they don't even pay for themselves.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 09:14:48 -0500
From:    ***@SUVAX1.STETSON.EDU
Subject: Title IX Debate

I see that Title IX has reared its ugly head again and many have taken the
opportunity to bash football once again.  Yes, I agree that Title IX should
be used to increase the number of women's sports and scholarships, rather
than simply reducing men's.  However, I think that the opinions are a bit
misguided.  Look at the top women's gymnastics programs in the the US (and
the top men's programs for that matter).  What schools do they represent?
Alabama, Georgia, Nebraska, Oklahoma, UCLA, Florida, etc.  I can almost
guarantee you that these programs flourish *because* of what football has
done for the athletic programs there.  Where do you think the money for
the equipment and the travel come from?  Where do you think the travel
money comes from?

Yes, football has a lot of scholarships.  On the other hand, it generally
raises a lot of money.  I'm not just referring to the direct revenue football
generates from its events, I'm talking about the money raised for Booster
memberships and alumni giving that's directly tied to football.  I'm sure that
many schools *technically* loose money on football, but that's only because
alumni giving and booster club dues are not factored in.  That bottom line is,
football scholarships should not be counted toward Title IX compliance
because it is *the* revenue generator for most schools.  Take the University
of Florida.  It's athletic revenues are now closing in on $100 million a year.
The athletic program is totally funded by the Athletic Association, who get
their funds from athletic events (primarily football, but also men's basket-
ball to a lesser extent) and Booster dues.  I don't know many UF boosters who
would contribute the amounts they do because we have a good gymnastics program
(or any other non-revenue sport for that matter).  It's because of football.
The non-revenue teams fly in the school's private jet because of football,
get great facilities because of football.

When the other sports starts drawing enough of a crowd to fund themselves,
they you can make your case for football.  Until then, let's try to give
equal opportunities to all college athletes and let's avoid making football
the scapegoat for one's bitterness.

Mike

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 10:40:27 EDT
From:    ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Title IX Debate

I think the whole problem being caused by Title IX centers around what
people in charge think collage sports are for.  There priority in sports
is money and winning. I think sports should be for fun.  Many of the
non-revenue had large bugets.  The problem the many athletic departments
have is that they do not have the money to both keep non-revenue men's
teams and add womens teams.  What I think should be done is cut down the
money each sport gets but keep the sport.  That might mean having no
scholarships for non-revenue sports, cutting back on trip expenses, and
having less coaches.  Some people might say, how could we have a strong
team without those things.  I think it is better to have a team that is
not as competive than to team.

I am lucky to be at a school that, in my opinion, has its priorities
strait. MIT has 15 women's sports and 21 men's sports.  MIT is only 35%
women.  2 women's teams have been added in the last fue years, and no
mens teams have been dropped.  There are no scholarships, and all the
programs are low budget.  The budget for the men's gymnastics team is
under $50,000 a year.  That includes paying for the coach.


Chris

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 10:20:22 -0400
From:    ***@SIDWELL.EDU
Subject: Re: Mukhina

>      I think I heard the uneven bars story too, but I also think that was
> notorious Soviet "disinformation." When she first got injured, they put
> out all sorts of conflicting stories about it and made it seem like she
> would recover fully, etc. Somewhere I have a Russian-published
> article/interview with Mukhina, and she said she was doing floor and
> trying a move she really wasn't ready to be doing. On top of that, she
> had broken her takeoff leg sometime earlier, and wasn't back at full
> strength. She knew she had no business attempting the move, but her
> coach insisted that she keep doing it. I think she said she will never
> forgive him for that.

The story in the videotape "Gymnastics Greatest Stars" is pretty much the
same thing.  I haven't watched the video in a long time, but I'm pretty
sure that it said that Mukhina was trying to come back from an injury a
few weeks before the Moscow Olympics.  One of the coaches (not her
regular coach) kept pushing her to try a really difficult move that she
didn't want to do, but she did it anyways, landed on her chin, and
snapped her spine.  It ended with something like "Today, Elena Mukhina is
sorry she didn't say no.  Today, Elena Mukhina is paralyzed..." (and then
went on to play happy music, showing Bart Conner qualifying for a ton of
event finals at the '78 Worlds, or something along those lines.)  It
didn't say anything about a bars fall or anything.

It's really too bad that Mukhina had to get injured, because apparently
she threw a whole bunch of really hard skills, like a full-in on floor
and a double back off beam, which are still pretty hard skills today, but
she was doing them in the late '70's.  I wonder what she could have been
if she hadn't gotten injured.

Lisa

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 11:50:57 -0500
From:    ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re: Mukhina

Says Lisa:

> It's really too bad that Mukhina had to get injured, because apparently
> she threw a whole bunch of really hard skills, like a full-in on floor
> and a double back off beam, which are still pretty hard skills today, but
> she was doing them in the late '70's.  I wonder what she could have been
> if she hadn't gotten injured.

Uh, no.  It's too bad that Mukhina had to get injured because of what that
means for her present and future.  She's stuck in a wheelchair.  When her
grandmother dies, will she even have a source of financial support?  What
would her life be like now if she hadn't gotten injured?  Easier, I'd bet.

Her difficult tricks just don't seem that important, comparatively.


--
       Ilene
------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 11:51:22 -0500
From:    ***@ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Re: NCAA Team Finals

I absolutely agree with Adriana on this one.  Women work just as hard as
men at their sports and should be funded at an equal level.  Sure, I can
feel sorry that some men who expected scholarships won't get them, but
those expectations were based on an unfair system.

Now, since Adriana doesn't want to talk about professionally funded minor
leagues for football and basketball, I will.  How many pro baseball players
went to college?  Some, but not many.  Doesn't seem to matter--baseball
players make good enough money that if they want a college education when
they retire, they can easily get one.  If football and basketball players
were trained the same way (by moving up through the professional ranks),
there would be a lot of scholarship money left for other sports, as well as
equipment money, travel expenses, coaches salaries, etc.

Now, at the risk of completely alienating everyone, I think that would be
the wrong way to spend that money.  You don't need to go to college to
participate in sports.  College athletics is just one venue; there are
private clubs, professional sports, neighborhood gyms, etc.  On the other
hand, college is absolutely necessary if you want to be an engineer,
doctor, lawyer, scholar, and on and on and on.  I'd rather see the money
spent on academic scholarships, lower tuitions for disadvantaged students,
and the like.

--
       Ilene

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 00:01:00 PDT
From:    ***@MCM.COM
Subject: Re: Title IX Debate

Mike writes:
---------
Yes, football has a lot of scholarships.  On the other hand, it generally
raises a lot of money.  I'm not just referring to the direct revenue football
generates from its events, I'm talking about the money raised for Booster
memberships and alumni giving that's directly tied to football.  I'm sure that
many schools *technically* loose money on football, but that's only because
alumni giving and booster club dues are not factored in.  That bottom line is,
football scholarships should not be counted toward Title IX compliance
because it is *the* revenue generator for most schools.  (snip)
-----------------
Okay, this is a very long debate and I am sure we could go on for decades
 talking
about it.  Yes, I agree that football success will help bring in the booster
 donations.
I do not agree that they should not be counted toward title nine and still give
out scholarships.  Like Adrianna said, girls that train all their lives should
 have
the same opportunity that boys have.  If we are not to count football
 scholarships,
then I believe that the football team should become a semi-pro affiliate of the
school.  Let's face it, football players, and basketball players to some extent,
do not get the education they are promised.  Let's quit kidding ourselves, and
just pay them the money they deserve.  They may have a scholarship to an
education, but most of them know they are "paid" to play, and the coaches
will remind them.  Although a sport like gymnastics may take more time actually
practicing than football, a gymnast does not spend hours watching film, in
coaches meetings, and giving interviews.

Two problems I have with the "football supports the athletic department so give
them whatever they want" mentality:  1)  Each night they spend at the hotel room
before EVERY home game adds up to ONE full ride scholarship for a gymnast, and
2)  Why do they need 88 scholarship athletes when most second and third string
players at places like Florida State, CU, Miami, and Nebraska could start at
 just
about any other school?  The only thing dropping the number of scholarships for
football would do is make the sport more competitive by spreading the great
players to all schools, instead of stockpiling them all in Florida.

Sorry this post is so long and not really about gymnastics (although I believe
 that
Title IX could be the demise of men's college Olympic sports, and so I feel it
 is
important enough to try and come up with a solution).

Josh

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 09:16:51 PDT
From:    ***@ROYALDIGITAL.COM
Subject: Re: Title IX and $$

Regarding all the posts about title IX and funding for Gymnastics:

1.  Funding has to come from somewhere.  Those Football Scholarships
    are often funded by grants from wealthy alma mater, as well as
    the funds actually raised by the football program.  Gymnasts
    need someone looking for grant money from somewhere - $50,000 to
    run a program doesn't sound like much for a corporate sponser.
    Are there any former gymnasts now in high places in companies
    who could benefit from the publicity of funding an NCAA team?

2.  Someone (or group) has recently done wonders for the sport of
    figure skating by staging so many exhibitions (and, yes, the
    baseball strike helped them immensely) that have been
    televised.  Is it possible for Gymnasts to do the same?  Also,
    they did not restrict the exhibitions to American figure
    skaters, but went for the world's best.  It has drawn quite a
    following.

3.  With the 1996 Olympics quickly approaching, gymnastics groups
    need to organize now to make the best use of the surge of
    interest in the sport.  The goal of this is to keep the interest
    (and the necessary funding, probably from private groups) for
    the next four years, to allow teams to afford good coaching
    and doesn't drive out gymnasts because of personal finances.

As much as we don't want money to matter, it does.  Coaches can only
live on low salaries for so long.  Parents can only pay for programs
for so long.  And it is a tragedy that talented gymnasts who cannot
afford training are left behind.

Just MHO.  Thanks if you got here without hitting *delete*.

Diane
Gymn Mom

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 11:07:45 EDT
From:    ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Re: TV alert

My TV section from this past Sunday claims that (at least
in the Boston area) the CBS coverage of the NCAA
will be 3-4 p.m. Saturday April 29, so check your local
listings carefully--afternoon shows have a habit of "migrating."

>>Kathy

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:28:18 -0500
From:    ***@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU
Subject: TV ALERT

Date sent:  25-APR-1995 12:26:23
TV schedules are cetainly unpredictable, especially when it
comes to gymnastics. I've seen them totally preempted (local
station did it with the 1987 USA Championships)

Anyway, in my area (Fox Valley Area Stations, WIsconsin) it is
scheduled for 2 p.m. Also listed as being from Austin Texas.
Makes me VERY wary....just a typo, or was that where the men's
meet was held?

Help if ya know.

Jennifer

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 15:17:57 -0400
From:    ***@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject: AP report listed in A. J. C.

The following is a transcribe of an Atlanta Journal Constitution
article that I am sure came via the AP or some other news source.
It appeared in the Sunday (April 23rd ) issue in the "Inside the Olympics"
column by Karen Rosen and Joe Drape.




Trouble Down Under


Elite-level women's gymnastics continues to get uglier with Australian
authorities inverstigating the national team coach for alleged msitreatment
of atheletes. Parents of gymnasts say that chinese-born coach Ju Ping Tian
punished the girls i fthey put on weight, and accuse her of kicking,
smacking, and forcing gymnasts to run fully clothed in a sauna if they
recieve unsatisfactory scores.

Federal sports minister John Faulkner has st up an independent inquiry while
Jim Ferguson, executive director of the Australian Sports Commission, says
the accusations may be racially motivated. "I can't comment on anything
specific but I believe some of the [allegations] have racist overtones."

Ju Ping is credited with elevating the Australian women from a world ranking
in the 20s to a high of sixth last year. She denied the allegations and
said that none of the gymnasts in her program was unhappy. Monique Allen, two-
time Olympian and Australia's highest ranked female gymnast, said Ju Ping
had been like a mother to her during her tiem at the institute., which
started in 1984 and ended last year when she retired: " I have an enormous
amount of respect for Ju Ping".


I apologize if this has already appeared in the mail group. I was just
wondering if anyone else has seen this article. I was rather surprised
by the success of Team Australia in Barcelona and now I know who to
contribute it to.


Jeff

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 18:18:37 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: TITLE IX battle rages

I have two girls and boy and am a former college coach with a "hands-on"
perspective on Title IX.  I want my girls to get all the opportunities their
hard work will deserve.  Conversely, my son will likely peak at about 5'8" or
smaller, and be solid muscle. Great wrestler or gymnast--poor scholarship
potential. So I am learning to "deal with it".  My oldest (girl, 12 y/o) has
taken two years of golf lessons in addition to gymnastics.  It's a lifelong
sport with scholarship potential.  The other two will also be taught to
diversify skills--academically too!  They also have savings programs for
school THEY already contribute to. What a unique concept, helping oneself pay
for school. Maybe they'll work at it when there?

The primary problem I see with T9 is implementation by  AD's.    Colleges are
NOT good businesses, generally.  Most athletic departments look at funding as
a"zero sum game"...limited money and so few people to get it.  Many advocates
pushing T9 implementation on campus aren't coaches or AD employees, but from
the liberal arts and social scientists who traditionally hold ALL athletics
in contempt anyway.  Yet many AD's ignored (root word ignorant) T9  'til the
NCAA had to mandate change by sanction.  Others destroyed good men's programs
that were growing, capable of bringing in paying fans (wrestling and baseball
are good examples), to make room for female quotas, putting entire programs
in red ink and alienating alumni.  During the early years of T9, many young
women who had no business being paid (athletically) to go to school--the
talent just was not there--got scholarships.  Many worthy young men got
scholarships reduced or their sports eliminated entirely to free up the money
for these women.  Today, however, the possibility of female scholarship in
sports like basketball, softball, swimming and golf has created a huge
recreational and highschool athletic boom for girls. Today's women's
athletes, at least in those sports, can be truly exceptional.  Gymnastics
does not yet have enough outlets at the college level for women for its huge
recreational base. Men's gymnastics just got caught in the political
crossfire--no fans, no corporate donors, small alumni base--no $.  What is
the presence of boys gymnastics in the private sector, compared to girls?
 Its a tough call isn't it?

I have no problem with women's soccer--the fields are available, there is a
strong, growing base, etc. But it should be accompanied by a corresponding
push (eventual requirement) to put fans in the stands.  Also, men's "minor"
sports should be promoted fully to develop fan support before getting cut.
 One thing is certain, all scholarship options are going to dry up if
 institutions don't get their academic act together. The Alumni still fund
most scholarships for athletics. A growing number of Alumni feel colleges are
not teaching people to get private sector jobs and produce tangible value,
but instead are indoctrinating and creating activists.  Many perceive their
alma mater is implementing quota systems instead of fielding teams that can
vie for national titles in high visibility sports (men AND women). With that
perception, dollars will dry up for ALL my kids, and yours too!

Sports like wrestling and mens gymnastics will have to field their own donor
base from individuals or corporations.  The revenue stream will have to be
widened if they cannot attract enough paying fans to support themselves.  Or
they WILL be cut.  Once gender "equity" is achieved, womens sports will die
again if they haven't attracted donors or developed contributing alumni that
can sustain all funding.  Next time they won't be created or saved by "equity"
 programs...if they try and fail, they'll be allowed to die without
corresponding cuts to men's programs.

The better women's coaches--especially female ones--will say "just give me
enough money to field and support a winning, dominant team over a period of
time and I'll deliver fans, support and a contributing alumni base".  That's
what winners  do.  Adding new sports when the money is scarce for the
existing womens sports, or cutting mens programs are not as popular with many
womens teams' coaches as many of the more academic types think.  The issue has
 evolved from a mens opportunity at the expense women's opportunity, to a
political exercise.  That mis-focus can and should be addressed.

//Don

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 18:19:31 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: WWW home page

Like ChinaHand, I'd really like to see a WWW hoome page, with Hypertext to
major sports journals (like Sports Ill) as well as other Gymn-type
activities. It would be a nice way to tie in internationally.  "W"orld "W"ide
"W"eb will be supported heavily by America Online soon, and CompuServe has
Internet enhancements coming. Prodigy is already doing well with WWW. I'd
also like to see a Hypertext jump to an Internet Relay Chat Gymnastics channel
, and a jump to downloads for clients, viewers, GIF/JPEG files and club
support software.  Is that enough for you egghead academics :)  to design?
how 'bout it MIT?  What designers want to take up the challenge?

How does the rest of GYMN feel? Would you use it?  Would you find IRC/Gymn
attractive?

//Don

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 15:39:44 -0700
From:    ***@LAFN.ORG
Subject: Title IX!!!

This is in response to Adriana's response to mine.
I don't think this is a matter of women working hard all their lives, I
believe just as you... that they should get what they deserved and worked
for.  But Title IX is about equal oppurtunity, which relates very closely
to another heated subject- Affirmative Action- which like Title IX I am
adamently against.  In order to help out people who have been
discriminated against we should not discriminate against others.  Which
is exactly what Title IX and Affirmative Action do.  I, or anyone else,
should not be discriminated against so that we can help others.  Your
arguments about allocating the money in other ways so that gymnastics
benefits more are simply hypothetical.  The reality of it is that
football rakes in the money, so football is going to get the money-not
gymnastics.  Relieving one's suffering to place it on the shoulder's of
another is just wrong.
        Thanx for your time :)
                        -Adam

P.S.  That last message that I posted was sent to everyone else but me.
Why didn't I recieve my own post? :(

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Apr 1995 10:07:00 EST-11
From:    ***@DISINFORMATION.BF.RMIT.EDU.AU
Subject: mukhina again

According to "History of Gymnastics", Mukhina was injured practising
alone in the gym trying to qualify for the Moscow Games after poor
showings in USSR competitions in early 1980.  I haven't read this
book for some time, but it was written by a British author, but I'm
sure a fall from the bars was mentioned.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Apr 1995 19:56:38 -0700
From:    ***@LAFN.ORG
Subject: Intro Adam

        I joined this forum about two weeks ago and failed to introduce
myself, besides through my reactionary comments on Title IX.  Anyway I
have uploaded my essay that I wrote for my college applications.  It's
pretty much dedicated to what gymnastics has done for me.  It may sound
a little egotistical at times, but that is because its my college essay
and thats what you've gotta do for these things.  I'm not including
this essay in order to pump myself up.  But rather, you guys/gals being
fellow gymnasts and all, this is something I feel that you will be able
to relate to...most gymnasts can:
                                College Essay
        Save seven months, for the past nine years I lived my life striving for
 perfection.  The familiar soft gray walls of a revamped warehouse served as my
 home, and six events

amidst a sweaty chalk filled atmosphere provided for a common bond between
 myself,
six peers and a scruffy looking forty-five year old coach.  The Olympic Games
 provided

the impetus for such crazy devotion; six to seven hours during the summer, three
 to four during school.  Every single day minus Sundays, (holidays were
 obsolete) my second

family and I could be found within the beautiful, sweaty ambiance of our gym.
        During my career as a gymnast I was fortunate to rise into the upper echelon of

gymnasts in America, I was selected to the United States Junior Olympic National
 Team on more than one occasion, with third place serving as my best ranking
 among U.S.

gymnasts of my age.  My accolades and  achievements are only secondary though;
 dedication, maturity and self-confidence are the true rewards of spending over
 half my

life working out in the gym.
        The incessant grind of giving one hundred percent everyday after school evolved

my current work ethic.  The controlling factors in my strive for perfection were
 hard work and dedication.  No matter how you feel on that given day you give it
 your all, and after

some time it becomes almost habit; you get caught in a groove- like that of a
 needle on a broken phonograph, only external forces can keep you off your path.
  This attitude has

carriedJover to school, which explains how with a three and one half hour
 workout everyday after school and a schedule peppered with A.P. courses I have
 received only one

"B", the rest "A's", since beginning high school.  My record proves almost as
 untainted throughout junior high and elementary school.


        Had I not grown up inside a gym I would definitely not be the same as I am
 today.  I just thank God I chose gymnastics as early as I did; such a sport
 allowed me to mature

both physically and mentally to a level that would have been impossible for me
 to attain had I chosen a different course.  My six teammates and I showed each
 other that, yes, it

was possible to cope and deal with the social roller coaster of teenage life and
 still live in and escape to another world every day.  That other world is
 gymnastics, and the pressures

which go along with staying in shape to compete with the worlds' elite, let
 alone the nations' best, are great multiples of a school's social life.
 Walking into the gym everyday

granted an escape, a solace of sorts.  Such repetition provided for the ability
 to disregard all surrounding circumstances, to focus on the present, to give me
 a clarity of mind for

which I can only be too thankful.
        The self-confidence which I have developed came directly from the innumerable

hours spent in the gym.  The many awards amassed did not come because I was
 ambitious one month and lackadaisical the next; it took years and years of
 training to

attain such a level.  I was not one of the best from the get-go, no one is.  For
 this reason, when I make an attempt at something and my first results are
 unsuccessful, I am naturally

a little disappointed; but I possess the self-confidence and experience that
 allows for me to keep plugging away, for I honestly believe that with enough
 hard work I can

accomplish most anything.
        It becomes a point of curiosity why I would quit something I loved so much and

which did so much for me.  The most simple answer is that I wanted something
 new, I had been tending to the same needs all my life. I felt it was time to
 move on.  I am now

seventeen years old, and it is time to experience all the beautiful things our
 world has to
offer, outside of the gym.

------------------------------

End of GYMN-L Digest - 24 Apr 1995 to 25 Apr 1995
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