gymn Digest Sat, 24 Sep 94 Volume 3 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
'95 US National Site Choosen
back in the gym...
China
Fontaine & Worlds
Full-in on W FX in '84
full on beam
Gym Stars
Leah Homma (2 msgs)
Messages
more stuff
My introduction
PRK
skill comparison
stuff (4 msgs)
Szabo and North Korea
This & That (2 msgs)
triple-double
triple axels (3 msgs)
Worlds

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 22:58:30 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: '95 US National Site Choosen

Information gleaned from article in the _New Orleans Times-Picayune_ (quotes
noted)

The '96 Olympic Trials will be held in Boston (though to give our team the
"edge" Atlanta would have been the obvious choice, top me anyway) and the '95
National Championships went to another city in the running for the trials ...
New Orleans, LA. They will take place next August from the 16th-19th and
again will be televised on NBC. The champiosnhips will be held in the New
Orleans Saints normal home the Superdome (sounds awfully lg. for a gymn meet)
or if that falls through the Lakefront Arena. The annual national congress
will be held elsewhere in New Orleans.

Greater New Orleans Sports Foundation executive
director Mike Millay who bid for the trials says: "We made a run for the
Trials, but they were a little out of our range ... This is a heck of a
consolation prize. This is going to be a showcase event. Any time
you get close to an Olympic year, the interest in sports like
gymnastics is increased"

Luan Peszak (USAG media person) "Everybody who's anybody in U.S. gymnastics
will be competing ... It's very important to be on the team just before an
Olympic year."

"This year's championships, held last month in Nashville ...
drew approximately 20,000 for its four sessions."

-summarized & posted by Susan <stobchatay@aol.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 23:40:30 EDT
From: ***@MIT.EDU
Subject: back in the gym...

Last night I finally got back to gymnastics (doing it myself, that is)!
I haven't set foot in the gym since December '92, so I was a little out
of shape (for those who don't know me well, I'm now 28 years old, and
had a baby since the last time I did gymn)! I am taking a class offered
at MIT for like 8 weeks or something, one 2-hour session a week. I knew
I was out of shape when I was winded by the warmup! But mostly it's like
riding a bike, your body remembers how to do things.

We worked beam and floor, which would have been my choice of 2 events
to start out on. I even landed a cartwheel on beam, which I never have
been able to do reliably! (I used to have a back walkover on beam,
however I need to get a bit of flexibility back before I'll get that
back. It was close, though -- I'll get it within a few weeks.) I even
managed an aerial cartwheel on floor, but it was pretty ugly. Let's just
say I wouldn't have made it around at all without the spring floor, and
still landed like a ton of bricks. My big goal is to get round-off, ff,
back tuck. I had it minus the guts to actually throw it when I quit last
time. And I got that cartwheel on beam, so anything's possible :)

Well, anyhow, I'm really happy to be back. There's something about
gymn, it sucks you in and keeps drawing you back...I always hate when I
can't find somewhere to work out. It's so hard for us old folks to
find equipment we can work out on (and spotters). It sucks loving a
young person's sport (yeah, texx, I know there's some 50-something
woman who kicks butt and give us all hope, but realistically...) But
I always thought having a baby would be the end of gymn for me, and I'm
glad it wasn't (but even if it had been, Ryan's worth it!) Gymnastics
can be great even if you're never elite quality -- I've been in love with
this sport almost all my life, even though I was never very good at it.

Last night I never felt so old in my life (ok, well, I've
actually never *been* so old in my life, but you know...) but today I'm
amazed at how little pain I'm in (anyone who writes back that I didn't
work out hard enough dies!) Just the usual all-over body ache that says
you've been working out, but nothing serious. (I guess all that
baby-schlepping :) has kept my muscles from total atrophy.)

Anyhow, sorry for all the rambling and self-congratulation :) Hope gymn
is as good to all of you, in your own ways, as it has been and continues to
be for me.

--Robyn

p.s. Ryan's inherited some of the gymnast in me, it seems -- his preferred
orientation is upside-down, and loves height and fast motion! He giggles
like crazy if I do handstands in the living room, and tries to do forward
rolls himself, but needs a little push to get his butt over that huge head
1-year-olds have. :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 21:02:27 PDT
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: China

Ooooh, Brett--you knew I would HAVE to reply to this one.

>As far as 94 Worlds team predictions go, don't forget about >China...

Yes, please. At least not until the competition starts, anyway... ;-)

>Even the Chinese girls can do rudis and popas... and they are finally
>getting credit for their superiority on bars and beam... Vault can
>be a problem, but remember, piked barani-outs are worth 9.9 and that
>seems to be one of their vaults of choice...

Yes, and don't forget my dear little Mo Huilan and her Gaylords. She is
determined...

>Of course the odds of a Chinese girl hitting her routine is about the same
>as being shot on the freeway, so thats.. lemmee see, um, 1 in 4.

Aw, gee, be nice! They are all so _young!_ Let them get a little seasoning,
and watch them sizzle.

Anyway, I'll see what I can find out when I am in Beijing next month.

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 20:53:24 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Fontaine & Worlds

>I don't believe Fontaine qualified to the Worlds Trials because of her low
ranking at Nationals<

Actually Larissa pulled out after a disastrous compos (2 falls on BB & it
didn't get much better on the other 3 pieces) and petitioned into trials. She
said it was due to the elbow surgery that she had recently had but only hours
before the Nat'ls began she was swearing up and down that her elbow was
"totally fine" (as was both her coach and mother). In fact, on the way home
from the hospital after surgery she stopped off at the gym for a workout!

I'd guess it had more to due with loss of her longtime coach (Leonard Issacs)
and the upheavel that ensued (including the surgery). Just before Nationals
she was training at "Gymnastics World" in Tucson with Strug being coached by
Artour Akopian (she's also trained with Geza). Nationals was also her first
meet back (as she decided at the last minute not to compete in the US Classic
and just petition into Nashville) and that combined with all the other strife
could definietly be daunting.

As of Nationals Larissa had not found a new coach on a more permanent basis
(though it was hinted that her fondness for Artour may take her away from her
home in IL for the first time).

Yes the 7-6-5 system will be used for both men and women **at this worlds
only**. For subseuent competitions a similar system of 6-5-4 will be used,
giving the less deep countries - primarily the former Sov republics - a
huge advantage. Oddly enough it was the USA that instigated this rule change
*before* the 7-6-5 system had even been tried at the world level. Go figure!

Susan

PS- As to the earlier question about the triple twisting double layout ... I
realize that you were refering to tumbling but it's no small feat that Vitali
Scherbo can use that as a dismount from the high bar (I last saw him do it in
November of '93) ... he's yet to throw it in competition (though speculation
is he would have done so had he made the Barcelona HB EF ... the only event
he didn't qualify into in finals BTW) but he's still capable.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 21:08:12 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Full-in on W FX in '84

>'84 routine. Retton wasn't the only one with a full-in
on FX, either. (Anyone remember? And what else did this gymnast do (hint:
beam) that was amazing, even now?)

There were quite a few gymnasts with a full-in on FX in '84

Szabo (2), Agache, Retton, McNamara, Bileck, Pauca, Cutina (and probably
others than didn't make ABC).

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 19:49:44 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: full on beam

On Fri, 23 Sep 1994 MaraEL@aol.com wrote:

> >1) What gymnast performed the first full on beam? Which American?
>
> Tatiana Groshkova? Michelle Campi

The move is credited to Alla Shishova (CCCP) who did it at
Budapest in '83, but I'm sure there must have been others who had tried it
before. And Michelle did the first *standing* full on beam for the US (J.
Thompson and Amy Chow are also doing it too now) but I recall Kathy J. saying
something once about how Michele Dussere used to do it in '83 (what would
Bart/Kathy commentating be without continuous and unrelenting LA '84
flashbacks?) and Garrison-Steves used to *mount* beam with a RO tucked
full.


Amanda


PS. Regarding Groshkova, is the sideways ff on beam credited to her or
not? It's not in the Code...does Europeans count as a big enough meet
to get names named after you? Or is it only Worlds and Olympics (and the
now nonexistant World Cup)?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 17:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Gym Stars

Anyone out there get the British magazine "Gym Stars"? If so, check out
the photo credits on p. 5 (left and top right) of the autumn 1994 issue. :)
Congratulations to our published gymn photographers!

Beth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 08:30:03 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Leah Homma

>[NCAA] Anyone know about Homma?<

Leah started competing for UCLA last year and had a great season. The meet I
saw her in she came in 2nd AA (behind Karina Marrow who scored a 10.0 on V
with a handspring pike front) and that was with 2 or 3 falls on beam and a
poor FX. It also was great to see her so confident (and in such great shape
for an NCAA girl) as it was not only the beginning of the season but also
only 3 days after the major LA earthquake the condemed (that's right isn't it
Brett?) the girl's training center. She was by far the most talented all
arounder (IMHO) on the team and with Umeh joining her there next year UCLA
should be quite a "Canadian" force in the NCAA.

Anyone else heard anything about Portacuerro's NCAA rumors?

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 11:47 PDT
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Leah Homma

At that meet Susan mentioned, Leah Homma had the best floor music of the last
2 years, elite or NCaa... and that is QUITE an accomplishment for an
NCAA gymnast...

one note: Pauca never did full-in (her twisting was horrible and her
flipping wasnt much better).. Stanulet and Grigoras did in 84, with
Stanulet doing full-in to headstand. (oops)... Szabo scored 9.3 on
optional bars after clobbering the top bar with her foot, hitting the
ground on a glide, and facing her dismount... Of course that was right
after Agache (on jet-lag medication) missed a giant.. yes a giant..

Bring back Baraksanova...

Go Cuba and Bulgaria at 94 Worlds...

Brett

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 18:02:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject: Messages

Yeah...I've been getting multiple messages, too.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 4:12:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject: more stuff

Robyn--
Yeah! I'm so happy for you! I finally did a little tumbling myself
the other night (on wrestling mats, at that!), so I know kinda how
you feel.

Mara--
Sorry about the trivia. They just kinda poped up.

Full on beam--
As far as I can remember, Pam Bilek competed cartwheel-tuck full as
early as '83, if not earlier. I don't remember if she competed it
during the '84 Olympics.

Naming--
I think the offical requirement is that a move be competed at Worlds (any)
and/or the Olympics. World Cup used to count. BTW--Okino has a triple turn
on beam to her credit, performed during the '91 Worlds (event finals).

Trivia--
Homma, Rankin, Oka, Morin, and Strong (CAN) all have moves in the Code.
Strong and Oka are competeing colegiate gymnastics in the US. Anyone know
about Homma? At one point we used to say that the Canadian national team
had immigrated to the University of Florida. Ronald?

Fontaine--
I missed nationals and haven't received any of my mags yet. What happened
to Leonard? I moved to Virginia so I have been out of touch with the
Illinois club happenings.

Bulgaria--
any word on their team?

Julius

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:47:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@wam.umd.edu
Subject: My introduction
To: gymn@MIT.EDU

Hello, my name is Mimi, and I subscribed to Gymn a few days ago. I live
in Ellicott City, MD, actually, right now, I'm going to school at the
University of MD in College Park. But my home's in Ellicott City. I'm
18, and a major die hard fan of gymnastics. Personal experience is
nothing spectacular. I did gymnastics on and off from the age of four
till I was about fourteen or so, with both clubs and through my schools.
Then, because of my coach's cruel comments about my height(I'm 5'5" and
according to her, I was just too tall for the sport and I was too big to
spot), I quit. But I've been following the sport closely since around
'85-'86. The first meets I ever saw, besides the '84 Olympics, were the
'85 Worlds, where I fell in love with Daniela Silivas, and the '86
American Cup where I fell in love with Kristie Phillips. They are still
two of my favorite gymnasts. The list goes on and on, but here are a few
others: Kim Zmeskal, Aurelia Dobre, Olessia Dudnik, Brandy Johnson,
Natalia Kalinina, Phoebe Mills, Tatiana Gutsu, Tatiana Lyssenko,
Henrietta Onodi, Kerri Strug, Michelle Campi, Hilary Grivich, and Dominique
Dawes. Just to name a few.=) I've been following women's gymnastics
closely since '86. My knowledge came from experience and from
television. I just recently started getting IG mag, and in Oct of '92, I
finally found other gymnastics fanatics through Prodigy. I was referred
to Gymn by a couple members there, and here I am, very, very eager to
talk with all of you about this awesome sport. I've followed men's
gymnastics, but not as closely as the women's. Collegiate, I'm basically
illiterate in that area, though I'm learning more about it every day.
See ya around. -Mimi P.S. If anyone has any info about the World Trials
in Richmond, I would greatly appreciate any, because I definitely would
like to go. Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 23:10:00 UTC
From: ***@genie.geis.com
Subject: PRK

>About North Korea, why are they pulling out of so many meets anyway?

Perhaps PRK didn't show in Brisbane because of the dispute over PRK's
nuclear capabilities? And they're probably missing Dortmund because they're
still mourning their Dear Leader's (or is it Great Leader's?) death.

They *do* have some excellent specialists, but would they really be a factor
in the team competition?

Debbie


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 20:40:33 -0400
From: ***@wam.umd.edu
Subject: skill comparison

>To really compare apples to apples in this case, I think that you need to pick
>a gymnastic skill that more closely resembles the skating skill. I think that
>a fair gymnastic equivalent to the triple axel would have to be something which
>doesn't involve any form of "punch" on the take-off. How many gymnasts do you
>think would be able to perform a tour jete with two additional twists?

While I've never particpated in either sport this does not seem like
a good comparison....keep in mind all the speed that a skater has
before a jump is make....there for it is fair that each should be
compared where speed in generated going into the skill....also there is one
point to look at....look at all the skaters out there...some are in
their late twenties early thirty and can still do the double and tripple
jumps....how many people in their late twenties do you know that can
do a double layout or a full in for that matter....the short lived
life span of a gymnast pretty much points to the direction that it is
move involved than skating...i think it is easier to rotate about the z-
axis (skating) then it is to rotate in two other axis as is the case
in gymnastics.....comments........

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 21:08:07 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: stuff

>A double full in-full out is called an Elliot (at least in
tumbling) after Steve Elliot, an 8 time World Tumbling Champ.

Can moves in gymnastics be named (in the sport) for people in "other" sports?

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 21:08:18 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: stuff

>1) What gymnast performed the first full on beam? Which American?

Tatiana Groshkova? Michelle Campi

>4) Who was the first American woman to do a Yurchenko? man?

Tracee Talavera

PS I thought I was supposed to be the trivia person {scowl}

:-)

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 19:52:30 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: stuff

> >A double full in-full out is called an Elliot (at least in
> tumbling) after Steve Elliot, an 8 time World Tumbling Champ.
>
> Can moves in gymnastics be named (in the sport) for people in "other" sports?


I thought a double full-in full out was a "triffis". Or is a
full-in double back out (full-twisting triple back) a triffis? Was there
a Mr. Triffis at one time?


Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 20:28:17 PDT
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: stuff

> > >A double full in-full out is called an Elliot (at least in
> > tumbling) after Steve Elliot, an 8 time World Tumbling Champ.
> >
> > Can moves in gymnastics be named (in the sport) for people in "other"
> > sports?
> I thought a double full-in full out was a "triffis". Or is a
> full-in double back out (full-twisting triple back) a triffis? Was there
> a Mr. Triffis at one time?
>
> Amanda

Any twisting double back is considered a "Fliffis", any twisting
tripple back is considered a "Triffis" (the tri for thre flips, don't ask
me where "Fliffis" came from). These aren't moves, but groups of moves.
Despite three twists this move has only two flips, so this can't
be called a Triffis.
Most of these terms came from Trampoline, where they could do these
sorts of things decades ago, as opposed to just getting to them off of high
bar now.

Dave Litwin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 19:55:11 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: Szabo and North Korea

> By the way, a friend sent me a photocopy of a picture of Kim Gwan
>Suk, and she has front teeth now!
>
They must be false. ;-)


Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 11:21:53 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: This & That

Am I the only one who keeps not getting half the messages I send? Again some
of this has become a little outdated. This was originally sent before the
message where I responded to the axel/tour jete comparison.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: This & That
Date: 94-09-23 17:06:53 EDT
From: Gimnasta

On age:

>I think they would want to at least see some semi-legitimate information
source (eg., birth certificate in countries where they are >given out) as
part of the standard beaurocracy no doubt involved in competing.
>So - I think they'd care, but I don't think there is much they can do (to
sum up).

The last sentence captures the problem exactly. The "semi-legitimate"
information source the FIG checks is passports, but it doesn't do much good
because the countries who want to cheat on age simply falsify the documents.
There would be the same problem with birth certificates or any other
document. Too bad the gymnasts can't be carbon-dated or something like that
:-)

On Szabo in '84: I'm glad Szabo's fall was finally brought up. Maybe she
should've won anyway, maybe not, but the fall did cost her more than what she
didn't win by (a fall in prelims would end up costing 0.125 in the end,
right?).

>More seriously, I think the results were due in part to the obviously heavy
pressure to give very high scores, which left very little room for
>discrimination at the top. (Once you give A a 10.0, everyone who performs a
routine at least as good should get a 10.0, but then
>you can't sort the routines or the athletes apart.)

Speaking of 10's, I was counting World and Olympic 10's this summer, and the
women's meet at Olomouc in '84 really takes the cake. I don't even have
enough results to know the exact number, but there were no less than *26*
10's handed out (almost half of them to Mostepanova). Gimme a break. And
that was without ROM, CHN, or the USA there, all of whom certainly had
several routines as good as many of the ones who received 10's in Olomouc.
Makes you think Olomouc was the bigger farce.

On Julius' trivia:

>Retton wasn't the only one with a full-in on FX, either. (Anyone remember?
And what else did this gymnast do (hint: beam) that was >amazing, even now?)

My guess is Pam Bileck -- wasn't she the one who did a full on beam?
Michelle Dusserre comes to mind, too, I think she could do a triple full
off BB.

!) What gymnast performed the first full on beam? Which
American?

The full on BB is credited to Albina Shishova (URS). Like I said, I think
Pam Bileck, but I could be totally wrong.

2) Who performed the first full-in (US)?

I haven't the vaguest idea, but on a wild guess, I'm going to say Peter
Kormann.

3) How about full-in dismount on UPB? BB?

No clue, but for some reason I associate the former with Chen Cuiting.

4) Who was the first American woman to do a Yurchenko? man?

Tracee Talavera. Trent Dimas comes to mind, but I don't really know.

5) Who performed a doulbe in-double back? (either sex)

Tatiana Groshkova (URS)

6) How many Canadian women have skills named after them?

4 come to mind, but some of these may be wrong and I imagine there are others
I don't know: Strong (1-1/2 twisting shoot from high to low on UB); Homma (2
flair mount sequence [or something along those lines] on BB, that funny hop
thing on BB, and I think flairs on FX too?); Rankin (jump to 1-arm handstand
mount on BB); Lowing (handstand press down on one arm on BB).

7) (follow up to 6) Where are they going to school now?

Strong - U. of GA, Homma - UCLA, Lowing (and J. Wood) - LSU

8) Just out of curiosity--has anyone seen a triple twisting double layout?

Off HB, yes.

Triple-triples, double-doubles... First of all, I agree comparison is
difficult if not impossible, but here I go anyway -- I was thinking about
numbers of of athletes who perform these skills, and there has been one
female double-double to two triple axels (we're talking major competition
here, not who's hit what in practice or at obscure moments, for the simple
reason that I don't know what's been done at that level). But there's also
been one double-in back-out. Have there been roughly as many triple-triples
as full-twisting double layouts (3)? Skaters have to take off a much harder,
much less springy surface and the skills are harder to land. I think the
precision of landing may be a big contributing factor to the difficulty
rather than the amount of power it takes simply to get all the twists in.

I guess that's all for now.
:)
Adriana

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 13:14:12 -0700 (MST)
From: ***@imap1.asu.edu
Subject: This & That

> Am I the only one who keeps not getting half the messages I send? Again some
> of this has become a little outdated. This was originally sent before the
> message where I responded to the axel/tour jete comparison.


I didn't get Adriana's original message, but whenever I send
things, I first get my message *totally blank* and a few minutes later I
get my message in its entirety. Does anyone else get my two copies of my
or their messages (one blank and the other complete)?

Amanda

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 09:09:38 +0600
From: ***@scoter.cdev.com
Subject: triple-double

> On Thu, 22 Sep 1994, Julius! wrote:
>
> > Trivia:
> >
> > (Following up on some earlier questions)
> > 8) Just out of curiosity--has anyone seen a triple twisting double layout?

Didn't catch this question before. Scherbo did a triple-double layout off
of high bar at the exhibition tour stop in Chicago last October. It was
ragged, but he landed it. The ubiquitous Stormy Eaton said that Scherbo
wanted to try it in front of a crowd before competing it at a meet
in Toronto.

--John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 07:48:32 -0500
From: ***@merle.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: triple axels

>> I'd like input from someone who knows, because somehow I get the impression
>> that the hardest skating skills aren't as hard as the hardest gymnastics
>> skills (say [for women], a triple axel isn't as hard as a full-twisting
>> double layout or a [tucked] double-double). I think that's supported by the
>> fact that skating programs are much longer than floor routines, so doing a
>> skating program may be as hard as a floor routine, but it's because of the
>> stamina necessary rather than the difficulty of the isolated skills. Anyone?


Hi --

Although I think people have responded to the triple axel question pretty
accurately, I thought I'd go ahead and offer my input. When I worked as a
biomechanist for the USOC, we did a figure skating study on triple axels,
comparing double axels to triples, etc. We had 5 of the top US men skaters
jumping for us, including US champ Scott Davis. After being down on the
ice videotaping these guys, I can tell you -- a triple axel is NOT easy!!

In our study we found that rotation speed, rather than jump height, was
really the key to completing the triple axel. The skaters who successfully
completed their jumps were rotating in excess of 5 revolutions/second. I'm
not sure exactly how fast gymnasts twist (like on a triple full on floor),
but I would doubt that they rotate as fast as the skaters do. On an axel,
a skater takes off of one foot (i.e. blade) and doesn't get nearly as much
height as a gymnast does during tumbling; hence a skater typically doesn't
have the time in the air that a gymnast does (the skaters in our study were
in the air about 0.6 seconds during their jumps).

Also, I think landing a triple axel is probably tougher than landing a
tumbling pass. Even the skaters who could complete a triple axel could not
complete the jump consistently. I think that once a gymnast masters a
skill, he or she basically knows what it takes to make it. Of course,
there are mental factors involved in being consistent ... But I would
think that it would be harder to land on a skating blade than on two feet.
Only the very best skaters can complete three twists and open up before the
landing. Most of the skaters are still twisting somewhat upon landing and
thus have a hard time pulling out the jump at the end every time.

This is not to take anything away from a full-twisting double layout on
floor -- certainly the combination of twisting and rotating is difficult
and is not a factor in figure skating.

If anyone is more interested in the figure skating study we did, we
published an article in the Journal of Applied Biomechanics 10(1):51-60.

-- Allison

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 13:26:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: ***@merle.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: triple axels


> >> I'd like input from someone who knows, because somehow I get the impression
> >> that the hardest skating skills aren't as hard as the hardest gymnastics
> >> skills (say [for women], a triple axel isn't as hard as a full-twisting
> >> double layout or a [tucked] double-double). I think that's supported by the
> >> fact that skating programs are much longer than floor routines, so doing a
> >> skating program may be as hard as a floor routine, but it's because of the
> >> stamina necessary rather than the difficulty of the isolated skills. Anyone?
>
>
Hi --

Although I think people have responded to the triple axel question pretty
accurately, I thought I'd go ahead and offer my input. When I worked as a
biomechanist for the USOC, we did a figure skating study on triple axels,
comparing double axels to triples, etc. We had 5 of the top US men skaters
jumping for us, including US champ Scott Davis. After being down on the
ice videotaping these guys, I can tell you -- a triple axel is NOT easy!!

In our study we found that rotation speed, rather than jump height, was
really the key to completing the triple axel. The skaters who successfully
completed their jumps were rotating in excess of 5 revolutions/second. I'm
not sure exactly how fast gymnasts twist (like on a triple full on floor),
but I would doubt that they rotate as fast as the skaters do. On an axel,
a skater takes off of one foot (i.e. blade) and doesn't get nearly as much
height as a gymnast does during tumbling; hence a skater typically doesn't
have the time in the air that a gymnast does (the skaters in our study were
in the air about 0.6 seconds during their jumps).

Also, I think landing a triple axel is probably tougher than landing a
tumbling pass. Even the skaters who could complete a triple axel could not
complete the jump consistently. I think that once a gymnast masters a
skill, he or she basically knows what it takes to make it. Of course,
there are mental factors involved in being consistent ... But I would
think that it would be harder to land on a skating blade than on two feet.
Only the very best skaters can complete three twists and open up before the
landing. Most of the skaters are still twisting somewhat upon landing and
thus have a hard time pulling out the jump at the end every time.

This is not to take anything away from a full-twisting double layout on
floor -- certainly the combination of twisting and rotating is difficult
and is not a factor in figure skating.

If anyone is more interested in the figure skating study we did, we
published an article in the Journal of Applied Biomechanics 10(1):51-60.

-- Allison



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 18:45:22 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: triple axels

>After being down on the ice videotaping these guys, I can tell you -- a
triple axel is NOT easy!!

Nobody has even suggested that a triple axel is easy. I think we all know
it's extremely difficult. That said, I'll get back to the
comparison-or-maybe-it-can't-be-compared issue (btw, on David Litwin's post
-- there may come a point where comparison is impossible, but I think it is
possible to a certain extent. For example, I think it's safe to say that a
layout double-double is harder than a single axel. At any rate, my point in
comparing is just information, not competition. I'm not out to prove one
sport or the other is harder, partly because I don't think one or the other
is, and partly because I'm interested in comparing mechanics, not just
difficulty).

> I'm not sure exactly how fast gymnasts twist (like on a triple full on
floor), but I would doubt that they rotate as fast as the skaters do. On an
axel, a skater takes off of one foot (i.e. blade) and doesn't get nearly as
much height as a gymnast does during tumbling; hence a skater typically
doesn't have the time in the air that a gymnast does (the skaters in our
study were in the air about 0.6 seconds during their jumps).<

Generally, I'd guess a triple full is easier than a triple axel. I wouldn't
be at all surprised if skaters twist faster (they're also doing a 1/2 twist
more than one does in a triple full), but I wouldn't think air time is the
determining factor as far as difficulty, though, because in a triple full you
need the time to flip.

>Also, I think landing a triple axel is probably tougher than landing a
tumbling pass. Even the skaters who could complete a triple axel could not
complete the jump consistently.<

I agree with this; I already addressed this in another post.

Someone else's post:

>To really compare apples to apples in this case, I think that you need to
pick a gymnastic skill that more closely resembles the skating skill. I
think that a fair gymnastic equivalent to the triple axel would have to be
something which doesn't involve any form of "punch" on the take-off. How
many gymnasts do you think would be able to perform a tour jete with two
additional twists?<

This is not really a much better comparison. Gymnasts don't have anywhere
near the speed skaters do going into this jump.

Finally, I think the difference in body type of the skaters and gymnasts who
can do the most difficult skills is interesting (skaters being older and
bigger). What does that say about the mechanics of the skills?

:)
Adriana

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94 21:08:27 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Worlds

>Well, of that list (Shannon, Dominique, Larissa, Jenni, and Amanda), only
two are almost definitely going. Nunno has said that he's not sending
Miller to Worlds, I don't believe Fontaine qualified to the Worlds Trials
because of her low ranking at National

I was under the impression that Fontaine withdrew due to injury? Anyone?

>Also, does anyone know if they're doing the 7-6-5 thing (7 gymnasts from
each country, 6 compete on each event, 5 scores count) at this Worlds for
men and/or women?

They are

Mara

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End of gymn Digest
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