gymn
Digest
Fri, 23 Sep 94 Volume 3 :
Issue 19
Today's
Topics:
'83 Chunichi/ Mary Lou (was Re: Top most important (SI)
list)
'83 Chunichi/ Mary Lou (was Re: Top most
important)
China
Comparing skating triple-triples to
gymnastics double-doubles
Dominique on GMA
Mary Lou etc. (2 msgs)
Mary Lou on TV(again)
Mary Lou Retton
Naming
skills & other stuff
North Korea and age (2 msgs)
OLYMPICS IN ATLANTA
Preview on two coming meets
Re: some questions...about judging
Skating Skills (2 msgs)
stuff (2 msgs)
Szabo and North Korea
This list (2 msgs)
Top most important (SI) list
triple-double
triple axels
U.S. Nationals
Worlds
Worlds teams
World teams
This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing
list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 94 02:43:04 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: '83 Chunichi/ Mary Lou (was Re: Top most important (SI)
list)
>> does anyone remember what else
she did besides win the American Cup (3
times) and
the Olympics?) <<
>I know this was a rhetorical question,
but...Chunichi Cup 1983<
For the Record
... 1983 Chunichi
Cup Results (from an old "IG"): 1-Marylou
Retton
38.85, 2-Elena Shusanova 38.75, 3-Diane Durham 38.60,
& 4-Maxi Gnauk
38.25 ... no ROM's came
Note
that Elena was only 13 at the time and 2 years (a lifetime in gymn) away
from her World
title and *5* years from her Olympics win (though I had seen
her compete as early as I think '80 or '81 ... help Nancy?).
Gnauk was in the
decided
"twilight" of her career (though she was a legend by then and
benefited score wise as such). I'm not belittling the
win - Retton
is still
the only American to take a Chunichi title -
just saying that there are
other factors at
work (as there are at almost every meet I know).
In the EF Marylou won V (by a large
margin ... 9.75 to Schennikova's 9.575)
with Shus taking BB & FX (tied
with Gnauk). The UB title was taken
by another
Soviet (sounds so good to be able to say that) Angelika Schennikova. In
an
odd result a CHN girl took the vault bronze ...
how did that happen <g>?
5 days later at the Tokyo Cup Retton repeated her V win and again failed to
medal in any other event (Elena on the other hand medaled in
all 4). Shus
took BB again
with Gnauk taking the other events.
Without
commenting on
Mary Lou's gymnastics (though you wouldn't have to be
physic to guess how I feel) I have to say that, if nothing
else, she had a
great head for business to get out
while the getting was good. I'm
not
saying that she didn't love gymnastics or
anything like that. I'm just saying
that the
*very* strong possiblity that she would do
poorly - at least out of
the medals - in
Montreal ('85 Worlds) would have tarnished that golden
image.
"Wheaties" doesn't put too many also-rans on the box
and you're not
nearly so cute & lovable when
you're not on the medal stand ... it's hard to
be
perky when you lose.
Of course, ABC was most likely well and truly
pissed since a lot more people
would have tuned in
to see 1984 OLYMPIC CHAMPION MARYLOU RETTON <insert
fanfare
here> then some little Soviet kids ... no matter how cute and
engaging. The days of Olga were passed people now wanted
*American*
gymnastics sweethearts. That could have
generated a lot more US fans for
gymnastics in
general ... eventually helping the sport to grow in this
country.
Sherwin
already mentioned that outside of the US Marylou is not a superstar
and though I'm not a fan of hers I sure know a lot of people
that began doing
or following gymnastics by
watching her in LA. Good or bad it also gave a lot
of
little girl's the desire to wear the red, white, and blue ... it suddenly
seemed possible for an American to win in the bigtime (no matter how
questionable
the victory). I'd have to say that
her greatest achievement was
not her questionable
win but her publicity of the sport in a country that
doesn't
like anything that fails to involve touchdown's, home run's, or free
thows.
Susan
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:45:42 -0500 (EDT)
From: ***@homer.louisville.edu
Subject:
'83 Chunichi/ Mary Lou (was Re: Top most
important)
>
> Of course, ABC was most likely well and
truly pissed since a lot more people
> would
have tuned in to see 1984 OLYMPIC CHAMPION MARYLOU RETTON <insert
> fanfare here> then some little Soviet kids ... no matter
how cute and
> engaging. The days of Olga were
passed people now wanted *American*
> gymnastics
sweethearts. That could have generated a lot more US fans for
> gymnastics in general ... eventually helping the sport to
grow in this
> country.
>
>
Sherwin already mentioned that outside of the US Marylou is not a
superstar
> and though I'm not a fan of hers I
sure know a lot of people that began doing
> or
following gymnastics by watching her in LA. Good or bad it also gave a lot
>
of little girl's the desire to wear the red, white,
and blue ... it suddenly
> seemed possible for
an American to win in the bigtime (no matter how
>
questionable the victory). I'd have to say that her greatest
achievement was
> not her questionable win but
her publicity of the sport in a country that
> doesn't
like anything that fails to involve touchdown's, home run's, or free
> thows.
>
I am new to this
list and am not directly or indirectly associated to
gymnastics
in any way beyond enjoying the sport as a spectator (of women's,
usually by watching it on TV) but I hope I'm still welcome
here. I am a 20
year old male American who has been trying to loosely follow
the sport since
1987's pre-Olympic trials (when the American team was
selected for the Seoul
Games).
I may not know all the technicalities, but appreciate the vast amount
of talent and mental & physical strength
needed to perform gymnastics. It
still amazes and enraptures me to this day
(that's why I'm on this list!).
Anyways,
I agree with the above sentiments in the last post. I didn't
really
become interested in following gymnastics until AFTER Mary Lou
popularized the sport for Americans. Once she got her 10 on the vault, ABC
plugged TV coverage of women's gymnastics more
and more as the years wore on.
I was too young in 1984 to appreciate HER,
but as I got older and into my
teens, I started
idolizing the "newer" American Sweethearts, like Phoebe Mills
and (especially) the great Brandy Johnson. I tried to catch EVERY TV
appearance of Brandy and not just because my male hormones
thought she was
cute...I really admired her
abilities as a female gymnast.
Because of Brandy's
popularity and
championship level, Gymnastics spread further in the U.S. and
was more highly recognized as a sport to watch (just like
what's been going on
with Women's Figure Skating
in the past few years). Americans
seem to always
want a "star" from their
own country in the limelight, and that is what makes
them
(as in the general public) watch and get interested in the sport. It
gives
the sport a "drama" type feel when we tune in to see if our heroine
can
win against the champions of the opposing
teams. It is especially dramatic in
TV covereage when our "Sweetheart" is
going up against an equally talented
gymnast from
a politically competitive country (like Svetlana Boguinskaya
from
the former Soviet Union...she sure had a
look that could freeze the blood in
your
veins). It becomes an ongoing saga
of wins and defeats, following the
story of the
current protagonist (from Brandy to Kim Zmeskal to
Shannon
Miller). Such is the
view from American specatators (such as myself), as
proliferated by the media coverage. This grand exposure of the sport DID
make
a lot of girls into Olympic hopefuls for the
future.
This
is just how I have seen it, based on limited facts and MHO.
Please tell me
if I've said anything inappropriate for this list (it seems
pretty formal).
Remember, I'm new here.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 15:18
PDT
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: China
As far as 94
Worlds team predictions go, don't forget about China...
Even the
Chinese girls can do rudis and popas...
and they are finally
getting credit for their
superiority on bars and beam...
Vault can
be a problem, but remember, piked barani-outs are worth 9.9
and that
seems to be one of their vaults of
choice...
Of course the odds of a Chinese girl hitting her routine is
about the same
as being shot on the freeway, so thats.. lemmee
see, um, 1 in 4.
Russia and Romania should hold on to the top 2
spots... I think the order
will depend on
consistency.. Romania is deeper but the Russians are better
gymnasts... Khorkina and Kotchetkova have a tendency to crash things though.
North
Korea pulled out which sucks because I wanted to see how old they
would claim Choe Gyong Hui to be this year...
remember they said she was like
19 in 1991... maybe in dog years... Plus, I
am always curious to see what
madness Pae Gil Su has added to his HB.. remember
in 91 the def, gaylord
and full twisting front werent
enough so he also did a double layout
flying
backwards over the bar... this he found tiresome so he made it
a full-twisting double layout over the bar in
Barcelona.. He is a great
2
event gymnast.. too bad there
are 6 mens events...
God I hope the Yurkinas are there....
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 94 20:18:23 EDT
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Comparing
skating triple-triples to gymnastics double-doubles
Adriana's
certainly correct that stamina probably plays a bigger
role
in figure skating long programs than in gymnastics routines,
but I would propose that one way to judge relative
difficulty
of skills within two such different
disciplines is by how many
competitors can perform
the skill, as a percentage of the
world-level
competitors in the discipline.
With regard to the skating
triple-triple, now that Surya Bonaly's
decided to go professional (at least for the next year or
so),
I think there are at best only a couple of women currently
in amateur figure skating competition who can compete
triple-triple
combinations. There may not be any. And there are definitely
no women currently competing with a triple axel, although
some
are working on it.
By that
yardstick, isn't it "harder" than a gymnastics double-double?
I
don't see how we can compare the actual physical difficulty of
two such different things, if that comparison has any
meaning at all,
without getting into serious
discussions of biophysics and biochemistry!
By the way, I've sometimes
wondered if Czabo didn't suffer in the
L.A.
Olympics in part because of her strange and distracting
application
of eye makeup. (In case it isn't
obvious, this
is meant to be humor.:-)) More seriously, I think the results
were due in part to the obviously heavy pressure to give
very
high scores, which left very little room for
discrimination
at the top. (Once you give A a
10.0, everyone who performs
a routine at least as
good should get a 10.0, but then
you can't sort
the routines or the athletes apart.)
>>Kathy
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 1994 18:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject:
Dominique on GMA
Anyone but me catch Dominique Dawes this morning on "Good
Morning
America"? They only gave her about 5 minutes of time, but it
was good. They did
a brief interview, and she
performed what she described as a "dance routine" on
beam - i.e., very limited tumbling. I think all she did was
2 flip-flops, but
given the not so
gymnastics-friendly atmosphere and lighting of the GMA set,
who can blame her!
The interview was
good. Dom fans will be glad to hear that she's decided
to
train through 1996. The interviewer (Joan Lundin - sp?) said something about
seeing
her in Atlanta, and Dom pointed out that she had to qualify for the team
first. It was similar when Joan said, "your next big
meet is in Germany," and
Dom said, "no, first is the trials in
Richmond, Va." I really like Dom's
attitude - she doesn't take anything for granted. Other
facts of interest: she
said she currently trains
5 hours a day but will soon increase it to 5-7. She's
finding
it a lot easier to concentrate on her gym now that she doesn't have to
juggle school and training. When she eventually does enroll
at Stanford, she
wants to study "drama and
the arts" and give something back to USA gymnastics
as well. But I was most impressed with how she handled the
dreaded "eating
disorder" question.
Joan brought up Christy Henrich and then asked if
Dominique
herself felt any pressure to stay tiny
and if she knew of other girls who had
obvious
eating orders. I didn't think that was a very fair question to ask on
live television, or even to ask at all. Even if Dominique
DOES know of girls
with eating disorders, asking
her to name them on TV is really tacky. But Dom
handled
it like a pro (or a true politician) - she just entirely ignored that
part of the question! She just said that she eats a lot of
carbohydrates,
fruits, vegetables, chicken and
fish. So she definitely knows how to handle the
press!
I did get everything
on tape. Which reminds me - to all the people I have
promised
tapes to (the Christy Henrich story on GMA and
"More Than a Game"), I
have NOT
forgotten you, although I wouldn't blame you for thinking so! I've
just been really pressed for time lately (having to work
overtime and/or taking
work home, etc.) I'll try
to get organized and get some blank tapes and copy
the
stuff soon. :)
Beth
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 94 12:56 PDT
From: ***@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Mary Lou
etc.
IG named Szabo its 1984 gymnast of the
year, pretty gutsy considering the
readership
etc.. It really bothered me that Szabo
"lost". I was only
11
at the time but it was the first time I realized that scoring is not
always fair (Retton BB 9.8? yeah,
well maybe out of 13), and that the
best don't
always win.. However the best in
that meet might have been
Lavinia Agache who was the 1984 Romanian national champion in AA,
V, BB, and
FX.. unfortunately
after winning compulsories (tied with Szabo who
they
made Lavinia suck
up to) she bombed, I mean BOMBED optionals and
finished
last on her team.
Retton's victory did more harm than good... although it did
get people
interested in the sport, it also
started the whole " we must take any
good
gymnasts the US has and overhype them, setting them up for failure
in search of the next Mary Lou" stuff...
oh well.. its the American
Way....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994
20:17:51 -0500 (EDT)
From: ***@homer.louisville.edu
Subject: Mary Lou
etc.
>
> Retton's victory did more
harm than good... although it did get people
> interested
in the sport, it also started the whole " we must take any
> good gymnasts the US has and overhype them, setting them up
for failure
> in search of the next Mary
Lou" stuff...
>
> oh well.. its the American Way....
>
It's sad is what
it is. When a sport forces someone
like Phoebe Mills
to quit to resume what she
called "a normal teenager's life" and intense
pressure
to perform is put on those labeled "The New Mary Lou" by SI (like
Christie Phillips) it does set them up for failure. It's too bad, really...
almost like the media was EXPECTING the young, aspiring
American gymnasts to
live up to the
accomplishments of their predecessors and take on their
identity
instead of their own. Albeit sometimes
they actually did better than
their forebears,
but the pressure on the girls seemed very high just from my
prespective as a spectator. Suffice it to say that I learned about
Bulimia
and anorexia from gymnastics coverage of
the disorders. :( Terrible.
Since I'm new to the list and
relatively uneducated compared to those
actually
IN the sport, could someone assist me by sending a list (FAQ?) of the
names and descriptions of the major moves in women's
gymnastics? I've saved
recent articles mentioning the "named" movements,
but I'd still like to learn
more. Any recommendations? (easy to
acquire library books and such?)
Any
help appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 19:12:54
EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Mary Lou on TV(again)
Just
saw my local news and Mary Lou was on it.
There was some new thing
about
Wheaties
and they had Mike Jordan, Mary Lou and
others previously on
the box
eating the cereal together.They
showed a replay of an old commerical
with Mary Lou doing her vault and the had a short interveiw with her.
Just thought you all want to
know
Anne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21
Sep 94 23:46:10 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Mary Lou Retton
>I'd just like to say from an non-
American point of view that from
the gymn people that I know, they
didn't think much of Mary Lou... all
we know she did was to win a boycotted
> Olympics and
nothing else
Sherwin's comment strikes a memory with me.
(...the
screen clouds as Mara's memory returns to the distant but fondly
remembered past...)
I was in London around
Christmas of 1984. I cut my touring
short one
afternoon to rush back to the hotel room
to see what the BBC had listed as an
'Olympic Gymnastics Review' (or
something similar).
The
first words (and I remember this vividly) out of the announcers
mouth
were "The top gymnast of the Games was
clearly Romania's Ecaterina Szabo."
Having only seen US coverage of
gymnastics up to this point (with it's
worshipful
coverage of Mary Lou Retton), it stunned me a
bit.
They showed numerous highlights of Szabo
(about 10 minutes worth), before
showing about a
minute of Retton. I don't remember the exact narrative,
but
it clearly implied she was inferior to Szabo.
It was startling to watch (as an American),
but very refreshing in it's
bluntness.
(...Mara
shakes her head and wakes back up to 1994.
The cloudy screen
clears)...
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 94 18:47:25 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Naming skills
& other stuff
For some reason this message never made it. Please disregard the stuff that
is now repetitive (like about Chunichi,
and also the inaccuracy in the
Chunichi
results).
Adriana
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: Naming skills &
other stuff
Date:
94-09-21 17:07:40 EDT
From: Gimnasta
>If
I remember correctly, the systematic naming of skills wasn't really
popular until around the '87 Worlds. It seems to me that the very
popular
difficult skills are named after the
inventor, irregardless of sex (Tsuk,
Jaeger,
Geinger).<
I
think that's right about the naming only getting formalized and popular
around '87. But
I'm told the reason the women's Code has kept the names of
male inventors isn't popularity, but difficulty in going
back and figuring
out who did what when. Tsuk, Jaeger,
and Gienger are all pretty old skills.
They use the woman's name when they know
(for example, a full-in on floor is
a Mukhina, and that dates back to
'78).
>Betty Okino has 2 skills in the
Code (can you name them?).
double turn on beam; underswing
layout 1/2 (or is it 1/2 to back layout?)
bars
dismount
>(BTW--which American has the most named skills in
the
Code? What are the
skills?)
Kelly Garrison -- 1 1/2 twisting cat leap on floor; side
Valdez, ro-full
mount,
and chest roll w/o hands (aka "breast roll" in the men's locker
room),
all on beam.
>One reason I like
K. Johnson's reporting is that she knows the skills and is
honest about her opinions on deductions. ("That is WAY too
low/high.")<
Eek!
KJ could do a lot better on her knowledge of skills and the Code. She
could
also be less biased, but then maybe American TV doesn't want her to be.
But to her credit, she does know more
than the rest of them put together.
>(1) Does anyone remember Nancy
Kerrigan's '91 World long program?
She
ADDED a triple-triple combination (rather she upgraded from a
double-triple,
but still) and attempted an aditional triple (Salchow
upgrade), which
probably helped her earn a
bronze. That is like changing a
full-in to a
double-double and adding an extra
double back!<
Never having figure skated, it's hard for me to know,
but it really seems a
little much to compare a
triple-triple to a double-double (I couldn't resist
:) ). Unless maybe one of
the triples is a triple axel (and even then...).
I'd like input from someone who knows,
because somehow I get the impression
that the
hardest skating skills aren't as hard as the hardest gymnastics
skills (say [for women], a triple axel isn't as hard as a
full-twisting
double layout or a [tucked]
double-double). I think that's
supported by the
fact that skating programs are
much longer than floor routines, so doing a
skating
program may be as hard as a floor routine, but it's because of the
stamina necessary rather than the difficulty of the isolated
skills. Anyone?
>An
aside---there were some very difficult skills being performed at the '72
Olympics. The Janz salto is similar to a Jaeger.
Similar, yes, but
they don't even begin to compare in level of difficulty.
>(Without
detracting from her accomplishments, does anyone remember what else
she did besides win the American Cup (3 times) and the
Olympics?)<
Retton won the '83 Chunichi Cup (Dianne Durham was second and an
up-and-coming Shushunova
third). Really a laudable
accomplishment for an
American, especially at that time. And in the interest of balance, I'll
add
that she didn't go to the '83 Worlds because
of an injury. IMO she had a
legitimate shot at V and FX medals.
>we outside of America didn't get too excited about Mary
Lou's Olympics
victory simply because, well, we're
not American.
Maybe it's just me, but my impression is that we inside
of America didn't get
too excited either, if we
were gym type people. That is, not
too excited
about ML herself, though excited about
the effect of her winning on American
gymnastics. The Mary Lou bandwagoners,
as I recall, were non-gym people and
little girl
gymnasts who weren't old enough know any better.
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 94 20:55:55 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: North Korea and
age
>North Korea pulled out which sucks because I wanted to see how
old they
would claim Choe
Gyong Hui to be this
year... remember they said she was like
19 in 1991...
At '91 World
University Games they
claimed she was 22!
Btw, what is Kim Gwang
Suk now, 12?
I'm sure we'll see even more of an issue in 1997 when the
age rise takes
effect...
This begs the
question...Is there any *independent* way for the FIG to check
ages? Do they
even really want to?
Mara
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 1994 23:30:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@clark.net
Subject:
North Korea and age
> >North Korea pulled out which sucks
because I wanted to see how old they
> would
claim Choe Gyong Hui to be this year... remember they said she was like
>
19 in 1991...
>
> At '91 World University Games they claimed she
was 22!
>
> Btw, what is Kim Gwang Suk
now, 12?
>
> I'm sure we'll see even more of an issue in 1997
when the age rise takes
> effect...
>
> This begs the question...Is there any *independent* way for the FIG
to check
> ages? Do they even really want to?
I find it somewhat worrying
that the issue of verifying the reported age
would
even come up in this context. The
fact that I can accept the
veracity of such a
question's signficance is even more disturbing - the
thought occured to me
also. I don't know that they can
verify it
physiologically, what with delayed
development, etc, and I doubt that,
given all the participants and varied sources, there is
anyway they can
really check.
I can see that they might want
to cehck - the limit is there for a
varietyt of reasons, not least of
which is ethics. I think they would
want to at least see some semi-legitimate
information source (eg., birth
certificate in countries where they are given out) as part
of the
standard beaurocracy
no doubt involved in competing.
So - I think they'd care, but I don't think there is much they
can do (to
sum up).
At least, I hope
they'd care.
Robert
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:49:56 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject:
OLYMPICS IN ATLANTA
The Games of the XXVIth
Olympiad will take place from July 19 - August 4, 1996.
It's projected
that roughly two million visitors are expected to see the
various events.
Approximately 11 million tickes will be available.
Artistic gymnastics will
have 15 sessions ranging from $25 to $250.
Tickets go on sale the Spring of '95.
There are roughly 55,000 hotel rooms
within a 45-minute radius of downtown
Atlanta. Reservations will be coordinated by the
ACOG. (Not sure what
this means.)
For further information,
contact:
Atlanta
Committee for the Olympic Games
250 Williams
Street, Suite 6000
P.O.
Box 1996
Atlanta,
GA 30301-1996
Telephone
404 224-1996
(Reference: "1996 Olympic Games At A Glance"
put out by the ACOG)
From
GRANTM@SWOSU.EDU
Wed Sep 21 10:57:10 1994
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:54:10
-0400
To: GYMN@MIT.EDU
From: GRANTM@SWOSU.EDU (Marcia L.
Grant)
Subject: OLYMPICS IN
ATLANTA
Does anyone have any information
concerning the gymnastics events for the
1996 Olympics in
Atlanta? Are there addresses
to write to for information
concerning tickets, housing, etc?
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Sep 94 12:43:10 BST
From: ***@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Preview on two
coming meets
The British Press seems to have taken a liking on
gymnastics at
the moment following our victory in
the Commonwealth Games. In
today's (Friday 23rd)
"Daily Telegraph" there was a large colour
photo of Karin Szymko practising on the beam (photo measured
31cm x 12 cm),
with a caption that said she was preparing for the
British
National Championships due to start in Guildford tonight.
The
"Birmingham Classic" International Grand Prix meet will take
place on 30th September (next Friday) in Birmingham
(surprise,
surprise), England. As yet I have no info
on who will be competing,
but they say
"Olympic, World and European Champions from 7 nations"
will be there. I'll be going and will post my impressions on
it
afterwards.
Sherwin
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Sep 94 22:15:14 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Re: some
questions...about judging
>A study was published a few years ago
that showed that judges who preview
routines are
biased later when they must judge them.
The earlier performance
appears to bias the
later decision in the direction of the previewed routine,
i.e., good or bad.
I cannot find the study reference, only this comment
about the original study.<
That's interesting; I
hadn't heard about that study. What
I wonder is
whether there is a difference in the
value (or lack thereof) of previewing
between the
time when the study was done and now.
I wasn't a judge before,
but as far as I
know, it's considerably more complicated to calculate start
values now than it was before this Code. I intended to say that previewing
was good for purposes of start values, not actual judging,
and that the risk
of being biased by an earlier
viewing was outweighed by an increase in
accuracy
and speed in calculating start values.
On the other hand, that may
just be the way
I feel as an inexperienced judge.
Experienced judges are
considerably better
at calculating start values without preparation, although
I know they sit
through podium training anyway.
Adriana
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Sep 94 09:27:01 -0400
From: ***@a1.csoc.umc.dupont.com
Subject:
Skating Skills
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Julius
wrote:
>As for figure skating:
I started skating about 2 years abgo and I
must say the sports are VERY different. Yes, endurance is clearly a
factor. I am
usually winded after a 2 minute program. As for
biomechanicas, I don't know. Skaters "onley"
have to twist, but
the technique for changing
backward momentum (???) is very diffferent.
>Put
simply, I found it easier to learn a double full than a double ANYTHING in
skating. In
theory, the double full should be harder because 2 axis
are
involved.
By the same token, a skater only has a 1 inch
toe pick to
redirect energy and add torque, while
a gymnas has, what, two feet?
Need a pyhysicist, I guess.
To really compare apples to
apples in this case, I think that you need to pick
a
gymnastic skill that more closely resembles the skating skill. I think that
a
fair gymnastic equivalent to the triple axel would have to be something which
doesn't involve any form of "punch" on
the take-off.
How many gymnasts do you
think would be
able to perform a tour jete with two additional
twists?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 94
10:24:15 PDT
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: Skating Skills
"Lots
of other people" write:
> which is
harder?
> As for figure skating: <...> I must say the sports are
VERY different.
"James" writes:
> To really compare
apples to apples in this case, ...
I think we have to accept that we
really can't compare these
things. Even within the realm of gymnastics it
is hard to compare moves.
For instance, is a back toss on P-Bars as hard as
spindle flairs on pommel
horse? How can you make the comparison? It will be harder for some and
easier for others.
Even
if you had someone who could do both a tripple axel
*and* a
full in on floor, would they be able to
judge which was more difficult?
For them maybe, but how does that apply to
everyone else? Difficulty seems
only able to be
judged when you have the consensus of a bunch of people to
average their oppinions. You can certainly infer difficulty (i.e.
a
double-double is harder than a full in), but I
wouldn't think this relyable
for
anything but very similar moves, and sometimes not even there. One
might
infer an L-Cross is harder than a regular Cross, but it really is
different for each gymnast (the L-Cross places more strain
on the pecs than
the
regular). A front lever is harder
than either (for most everyone) and
a back lever
isn't much harder than a simple L seat, but no-one who hasn't
seriously attempted all of these would guess it from
inference.
Until
there are a multiple of people able to perform both of these
moves (tripple axel and full in)
we could speculate all day about "how many
hours
average/years of practice to get the move", "percentage of the
sport that can do them" or "strict number of atheletes that can do them",
but
we won't really get anywhere.
Just
my oppinion,
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994
23:04:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject: stuff
Szabo--
Wans't she suffering
from jet lag or some other illness during
the '84
Olympics? And remember, even though
she "should" have won, she
did ahve a MAJOR break during team (fall on UPB).
I
have a copy of event finals from the '83 Nationals, and Retton
looked
pretty, hmmmm,
inconsistent? It was quite
interesting to see the
difference a year
makes. McNamara's '83 routine was
COMPLETELY different
from her Gold '84
routine. Retton
wasn't the only one with a full-in
on FX, either.
(Anyone remember? And what
else did this gymnast
do (hint: beam) that was
amazing, even now?)
As for figure skating: I started skating about 2 years abgo and I
must say the
sports are VERY different. Yes,
endurance is clearly a
factor. I am usually winded after a 2 minute program.
As for
biomechanicas,
I don't know. Skaters "onley" have to twist, but
the
technique for changing backward momentum (???) is very diffferent.
(I
will apologize now for all the typos.
My delete key doesn't work.)
Put simply, I found it easier to
learn a double full than a double ANYTHING in
skating. In theory, the double full should be
harder because 2 axis are
involved. By the same token, a skater only has a 1 inch toe pick to
redirect
energy and add torque, while a gymnas has, what, two
feet?
Need a pyhysicist, I guess.
Also,
using the number of people competeing the
skill...aren't there a
LOT more girls/women in skating than
gymnastics? (More expensive,
granted, but
at this point a higher monetary
reward for success.) If this is
true,
then there should be quite a few skaters
performing triples, triple-triple
combinations,
and triple axels. [There is a big
difference between types
of triple, as well, but
that's for another news groupd :) ]
Trivia:
(Following
up on some earlier questions)
!)
What gymnast performed the first full on beam? Which American?
2) Who performed the first full-in
(US)?
3) How
about full-in dismount on UPB?
BB?
4)
Who was the first American woman to do a Yurchenko? man?
5) Who performed
a doulbe in-double back? (either
sex)
6) How
many Canadian women have skills named after them?
7) (follow up to
6) Where are they going to school
now?
8) Just out of
curiosity--has anyone seen a triple twisting double layout?
Julius
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Sep 1994 09:33:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu
Subject:
stuff
On Thu, 22 Sep 1994, Julius! wrote:
>
Trivia:
>
> (Following up on some earlier questions)
> 8) Just out of
curiosity--has anyone seen a triple twisting double layout?
Uh-huh. A double full in-full out is called an
Elliot (at least in
tumbling) after Steve Elliot,
an 8 time World Tumbling Champ. I
saw him
do one at Woodward Gymnastics Camp this
summer. He's now in, what, his
late 30's-early 40's? Well, it was pretty incredible--he was
sky-high.
I can't remember,
but Alexander Kolinov (probably sp--he's from Russia
and
was Junior European champ a couple of times) may have also done it while I
was there--I have pictures of the two of them
doing layouts and fulls and
they
are out of the frame, a good 20 feet above the floor.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 1994 22:29:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject:
Szabo and North Korea
I think what cost Szabo the gold in '84 was her fall on her bars dismount
during team finals. Since there was no "new
life" back then, that carryover
score put
her at a big disadvantage. Had there been "new life" back then, she
would have walked away with the title! I
personally hate "new life," but the LA
Olympics are one meet
where I wish it had been in effect, because Szabo
truly
was the better gymnast.
About North Korea, why
are they pulling out of so many meets anyway? I
know
the women's team was banned from the 1993 Worlds for lying about Kim Gwan
Suk's age, but I thought the ban was only for a
year. But then no North
Korean women OR men showed up in Brisbane. Does
anyone know what's going on?
By the way, a friend
sent me a photocopy of a picture of Kim Gwan Suk,
and
she has front teeth now!
Beth
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:24:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@tiger.hsc.edu
Subject:
This list
This list, formal?
On
Brandy Johnson--
Too bad she never hit 8 for 8 at Worlds. Unlike the tiny tops,
Brandy, IMHO,
better represented _women's_ gymnastics.
I think she was given
some bad advice about
professional vs collegiate gymnastics, though.
I'll
bet she would have DOMINATED the collegiate scene (like Kelly Garrison-
Steves in the mid-late '80's) Who knows?
On Phoebe
Mills--
Is she still diving?
I've heard she has move up the ladder of US diving. She
still
holds many records at Evanston Township HS. (Granted, HS, but then Bart
Connor
set records in high school, too.)
Anyone have any predictions about
the World Teams compositions and the ranking
of
the countries? Should prove to be
very interesting if we have as much
depth as the
media may imply. Imagine Shannon, Domonique, Larissa, Jenni,
Amanda, (and the alternate to be determined :)) all healthy? Granted, they
need
a little more consistency, but the skills are certainly there!
Any word on Johanna Hughes (AUS)? How about the Canadian team?
Julius
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Sep 94 00:35:20 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: This list
I
heard that at the Olympic festival, Phoebe Mills was kicked off the
University
of Miami (or wherever she attends) diving team because she broke
curfew. I got it
from a source that I hadn't heard from before so, I don't
know the validity of it.---Brian
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Sep 94 23:14:05 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Top most
important (SI) list
>As for Retton, she
was certainly an important figure in the US. (Without
detracting
from her accomplishments, does anyone remember what else she did
besides win the American Cup (3 times) and the
Olympics?)
I know this
was a rhetorical question, but...
Chunichi
Cup 1983
:-)
Mara
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Sep 1994 09:09:38 +0600
From: ***@scoter.cdev.com
Subject: triple-double
>
On Thu, 22 Sep 1994, Julius! wrote:
>
>
> Trivia:
> >
> > (Following up on some earlier
questions)
> > 8) Just out of curiosity--has anyone
seen a triple twisting double layout?
Didn't catch this question
before. Scherbo did a triple-double layout off
of high bar at the exhibition tour stop in Chicago last
October. It was
ragged, but he landed it. The
ubiquitous Stormy Eaton said that Scherbo
wanted to try it in front of a crowd before competing it at
a meet
in Toronto.
--John
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Sep 1994 07:48:32 -0500
From: ***@merle.acns.nwu.edu
Subject:
triple axels
>> I'd like input from someone who knows, because
somehow I get the impression
>> that the
hardest skating skills aren't as hard as the hardest gymnastics
>> skills (say [for women], a triple axel isn't as hard as a
full-twisting
>> double layout or a [tucked]
double-double). I think that's
supported by the
>> fact that skating
programs are much longer than floor routines, so doing a
>> skating program may be as hard as a floor routine, but it's
because of the
>> stamina necessary rather
than the difficulty of the isolated skills. Anyone?
Hi --
Although
I think people have responded to the triple axel question pretty
accurately, I thought I'd go ahead and offer my input. When I worked as a
biomechanist for the USOC, we did
a figure skating study on triple axels,
comparing
double axels to triples, etc. We
had 5 of the top US men skaters
jumping for us,
including US champ Scott Davis.
After being down on the
ice videotaping
these guys, I can tell you -- a triple axel is NOT easy!!
In our study we found that
rotation speed, rather than jump height, was
really
the key to completing the triple axel.
The skaters who successfully
completed
their jumps were rotating in excess of 5 revolutions/second. I'm
not
sure exactly how fast gymnasts twist (like on a triple full on floor),
but I would doubt that they rotate as fast as the skaters
do. On an axel,
a skater takes off of one foot (i.e. blade) and doesn't get
nearly as much
height as a gymnast does during
tumbling; hence a skater typically doesn't
have
the time in the air that a gymnast does (the skaters in our study were
in the air about 0.6 seconds during their jumps).
Also,
I think landing a triple axel is probably tougher than landing a
tumbling pass.
Even the skaters who could complete a triple axel could not
complete the jump consistently. I think that once a gymnast masters
a
skill, he or she basically knows what it takes
to make it. Of course,
there are mental factors involved in being consistent
... But I would
think that it would be harder to land on a skating blade
than on two feet.
Only the very best skaters can complete three twists and
open up before the
landing. Most of the skaters are still twisting
somewhat upon landing and
thus have a hard time
pulling out the jump at the end every time.
This is not to take
anything away from a full-twisting double layout on
floor
-- certainly the combination of twisting and rotating is difficult
and is not a factor in figure skating.
If anyone is more
interested in the figure skating study we did, we
published
an article in the Journal of Applied Biomechanics 10(1):51-60.
--
Allison
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94
09:43:38 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: U.S. Nationals
>I
realize this is kind of late in the asking, but why was Shannon's bar
routine only scored out of a 9.9 in Event Finals? Was her dismount not
counted as a true double layout?<
I don't
remember the routine well enough and I don't have a tape with me.
What I *can* say is that any time there's
0.2 or more in deductions on an
element, no bonus
is awarded. Still, from what I know
of the content of her
routine, and that she didn't
have any serious breaks (other than the usual
double
layout) it seems she ought to have started from a 10.
hop-full to Gienger (E+D)
blind change to Healy to straddle back (?)
(giant-full to?) Tkatchev ([C+?]D)
double layout (E)
Extra
D/E: 2 D's are required. Even if she didn't get bonus for the
double
layout, she still gets value part credit,
which means that the double layout
can cover one
of the required D's. She'd get 0.2
for the hop-full and 0.1
for one of the D's, which
comes to 0.3 (the maximum she can get for extra D's
and
E's).
Special connections:
the E+D gets 0.2 bonus. A giant full to a Tkatchev
gets 0.1 bonus if the giant full was finished past the
handstand and 0.2 if
the giant-full was finished
within 10 degrees of vertical.
So this calculation comes to a 10 SV
without even considering the blind
change Healy (I
don't know what that's worth) to straddle back. Does she no
longer
do a giant-full before the Tkatchev? That's all I can think of. The
Healy into a straddle back to
handstand might give her some more connection
bonus,
but if I recall correctly, she didn't hit a handstand on the straddle
back.
Hope this helps. If someone can give me a description of
the particular
performance, I might be able to
figure it out.
:)
Adriana
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Sep 1994 09:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@gateway.us.sidwell.edu
Subject:
Worlds
On Thu, 22 Sep 1994, Julius! wrote:
>
This list, formal?
Yeah, right :)!
> Anyone have any
predictions about the World Teams compositions and the ranking
> of the countries?
Should prove to be very interesting if we have as much
> depth as the media may imply. Imagine Shannon, Domonique,
Larissa, Jenni,
> Amanda, (and the alternate
to be determined :)) all healthy?
Granted, they
> need a little more
consistency, but the skills are certainly there!
Well, of that list
(Shannon, Dominique, Larissa, Jenni, and Amanda),
only
two are almost definitely going. Nunno has said
that he's not sending
Miller to Worlds, I don't believe Fontaine qualified
to the Worlds Trials
because of her low ranking
at Nationals, and Thompson is too young (you
have
to be 15 by the end of the year, or 14 in pre-Olympic years, i.e.
1995,
and Thompson turned 13 just before Nationals, if my memory serves
me correctly).
And you never know what could happen to Dawes and Borden
at the trials...
Also, does anyone know if they're
doing the 7-6-5 thing (7 gymnasts from
each country, 6 compete on each event, 5 scores count) at
this Worlds for
men and/or women?
Lisa
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 22 Sep 1994 22:56:51 PST
From: ***@electriciti.com
Subject:
Worlds teams
Hi everyone,
Help for Dortmund predictions
...
Participating nations as of September 5 (according to the
organizers):
Men and Women:
------------------
Belarus
Bulgaria
Canada
China
Cuba
Czech Republic
France
Great
Britain
Germany
Hungary
Israel
Italy
Japan
Romania
Russia
South
Africa
Ukraine
USA
Men only:
------------
Argentina
Korea
Puerto Rico
Switzerland
Women only:
-------------
Australia
Latvia
Mexico
Spain
--Nancy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994
09:58:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: World
teams
So Bulgaria found some female gymnasts, huh? In Brisbane a friend and a I
asked a Bulgarian coach
why no women were there, and he said "we don't have
any." It will be interesting to see who turns up in
Dortmund!
Beth
------------------------------
End of
gymn Digest
******************************