GYMN-L Digest - 5 Jun 1995 to 6 Jun 1995

There are 19 messages totalling 588 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. joint repairs (5)
  2. Benchmarking (2)
  3. Gymn on the PC -- belated continuation (long)
  4. stereotypes and rewards (2)
  5. Gymnastics club on *P- ages 13- 21
  6. little girls in pretty boxe
  7. Olympic Pins
  8. Tumbling
  9. Little Girls in Pretty Boxes (2)
 10. Olympic Shop
 11. Mary Lou's rebuttle. (2)

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Date:    Mon, 5 Jun 1995 20:45:32 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: joint repairs

Lifes been kinda bizarre, even for me lately...
Friend murdered, coming home from spending a week setting up, running and
knocking down a sci fi convention only to be greeted at the door by mom on a
pair of crutches, etc, you know the usual.....

I have a desperate need to learn all I can about artificial joints as soon
as possible.  We keep talking about Shannons "screw" etc.
Artificail joints seem to be on the topic of gymnastics since so many gymnsasts
end up with them.

Do they REALLY work ?  Or are doctors getting rich at other peoples expense.
Do ALL artificial joints work ?
As I recall, there are several bio-med folk on here as well as som sports
medical people.

OK I opened the can of worms (& I didnt use a flmethrower either!)
What say you all ?

-texx

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Date:    Mon, 5 Jun 1995 23:56:48 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Benchmarking

>>We are trying very hard to not fall into the category of pushy parents,
>>but with gymnastics taking 22 hours per week + a lot of $, etc.

A number of people have expressed concern about the 22-hour figure.  Could
you clarify whether that is the number of hours your daughter works out or
whether it is the number you, your husband, and your daughter together are
putting in, which would include driving time to and from the gym,
volunteering, and other gym-related activities?  I was thinking (hoping) it
would be the latter because 22 hours of workout does seem awfully high for a
6-year-old.

:-)
Adriana

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 00:05:08 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: joint repairs

HMMM.....fake joints.......I know this one well!

As a former dancer and gymnast, I now am the proud owner of 2, count them 2,
artificial knees. Except for knowing when it is going to rain, snow, sleet,
etc. they work great.  Although, you can't dance or do gymnastics anymore!
but I can at least walk.

On the serious side.  My knees were a real life saver for me. They do give me
some problems but without them I would be in a wheelchair. Having been in one
for a year, I didn't want to stay there. I have had minor problems, nothing
serious. Although the docs say that if I don't take care of them, I will wear
them out!  I would reccomend them if needed. I would always seek a good doc.
I have had mine for 11 years, so I am sure that technology has gotten better.
( Maybe I need to trade mine in?)

BTW, my knees are not the result of dance or gymnastics, just some really bad
luck.

If anyone has any questions, please e-mail me privately and I will do my best
to answer them.

Half plastic and still living,
Lori

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 00:07:00 EST
From:    ***@MCIMAIL.COM
Subject: Gymn on the PC -- belated continuation (long)

Hi all, Don't ask me where the week, or I should say weeks, have
zipped to; I've been so swamped lately it seems like only
yesterday when I promised to post more information about The
Games, Summer Edition and what the gymnastics events were like.
[This is why I tend to be a lurker.] And it didn't help any that
I had to contend with setting up a new computer (always an
intriguing learning experience) _and_ that I had to dig out the
program and it's manual.  I'd buried the disks amongst a stack of
unorganized diskettes that came home with me from college
(effectively keeping the program out-of-reach, which was
necessary considering how addicted I once was).

So anyway, apologies on the delay in getting this info out; I
hope that it's still of interest to some of you folks out there
(at least those of you who are left out there during the summer).

The still rings event is the one I can speak least
authoritatively about, since I could never figure out how it
worked, let alone what moves I was doing.

The uneven bars were another story.  I worked on those until I
perfected it with the maximum 10.0 score (scores were by tenths).
The game was pretty clever, offering different moves or series of
moves depending on how you moved the joystick or, if you were
playing with the keyboard, which keys you pressed.  So that, for
example, if you started your mount by moving the joystick down
(mounting with the D-rated move described as extended body mount
to handstand low bar facing out) the next set of moves open to
you would be to fall, if you left the joystick in the center, to
do a D-rated salto roll forward to hang on the high bar if you
pushed the joystick down, and to do a C-rated hip circle half
turn flight to high bar if you pushed the joystick up.  From there
you'd have another set of options open to you, similarly
dependent on how you move the joystick.

There were 17 moves of varying difficulties, ranging from A moves
like the straddle mount over low bar to hand support (the other
of the two possible mounts) to D moves like a cast uprise half
turn grip change.  Seven moves would invoke a penalty (such as
doing a "reverse splat fall off low bar" as the manual describes
it), and penalties could be incurred by doing the same move too
many times.  Scoring was based on a scheme where A moves = 1
point, B moves = 2 points, C moves = 3 points, and D moves =4
points.  Some of the other moves include a lying hang pirouette
straddle to high bar, a glide kip full turn to grip change, a
Radochlaroll full turn to hang on high bar, to a cast to
handstand legs together.  Two of the greatest drawbacks to the
routine combinations are the limitation of only two choices for
your mount and two choices for your dismount (hip circle hecht
turn dismount and salto backward half twist dismount).

Summer Games' unevens event gets you wondering what a game
developer could do today if they bothered to create a gymnastics
game; after all, keep in mind this game dates back to 1988 (and
was probably written by programmers back in '87). Any game developers
out there amongst us?

Cheers,
Melissa

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Date:    Mon, 5 Jun 1995 23:25:12 -0700
From:    ***@ACCESSNV.COM
Subject: Re: Benchmarking

> >>We are trying very hard to not fall into the category of pushy parents,
> >>but with gymnastics taking 22 hours per week + a lot of $, etc.
>
> A number of people have expressed concern about the 22-hour figure.  Could
> you clarify whether that is the number of hours your daughter works out or
> whether it is the number you, your husband, and your daughter together are
> putting in, which would include driving time to and from the gym,
> volunteering, and other gym-related activities?  I was thinking (hoping) it
> would be the latter because 22 hours of workout does seem awfully high for a
> 6-year-old.
>
> :-)
> Adriana
>
After reading just the first 2 chapters of "the book", and what I've heard
from many coaches, I would say when it involves Bela's gym 22-hour
workouts for a 6 year old is not unheard of.

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 00:07:43 -0700
From:    ***@HALCYON.COM
Subject: stereotypes and rewards

        Hi, all. This is slightly off-topic, but i might as well try anyway:

        I'm writing a paper for my english class dealing with some of the
stereotypes that gymnasts have to put up with (i.e. tiny, eat lettuce,
training 85 hours a day), and also with some of the rewards you get out
of gymnastics that most people don't see. I'd like to know  what
people have to say. I mainly need rewards right now, but if you have a
good stereotype don't be shy. Feel free to send responses either directly
to me (lingwood@halcyon.com) or to the group if you want them to hear.

Thanks a lot!
-stephanie l.

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 01:45:57 -0700
From:    ***@ACCESSNV.COM
Subject: Re: stereotypes and rewards

>         Hi, all. This is slightly off-topic, but i might as well try anyway:
>
>         I'm writing a paper for my english class dealing with some of the
> stereotypes that gymnasts have to put up with (i.e. tiny, eat lettuce,
> training 85 hours a day), and also with some of the rewards you get out
> of gymnastics that most people don't see. I'd like to know  what
> people have to say. I mainly need rewards right now, but if you have a
> good stereotype don't be shy. Feel free to send responses either directly
> to me (lingwood@halcyon.com) or to the group if you want them to hear.
>
> Thanks a lot!
> -stephanie l.
>


I've been a school teacher now for 18 years.  I have been involved with
gymnastics for the past 15 years.  The things I notice most is when school
and gymnastics come together.  A lot of people see these kids as socially
isolated.  If I saw them only at school leaving early each day etc. I
would probably agree.  These kids have a lot of social activity with both
the kids at school, kids in their neighborhood, and especially in the
gym.  We just took our team to the lake and had a blast - these are great
kids.

As a teacher, I can tell you that gymnasts are among the most intelligent
and the most disciplined children that I have the pleasure to deal with.
Most are straight A students and usually graduate the top of their class.

These kids are also among the most physically fit.  Yes there are
occasional injuries but to tell you the truth, when I see one of my
gymnasts with an injury it is more likely that they got it at home or at
school.  The gym is usually one of the safest places that they spend time.

Good sportsmanship was one of the very first things I noticed about
gymnasts.  They are alway cheering on not only their on team mates but
those on the other teams as well.

There are many many rewards to being a gymnast.

Gregory

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Date:    Mon, 5 Jun 1995 20:47:22 EDT
From:    ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: Gymnastics club on *P- ages 13- 21

I just wanted to inform all of you "Prodigy users"  that
there is a gymnastics club on a FREE BB!!!  To get there,
jump: Jane's bb.  When you get there Select Topic-- Stuff
you do 4 fun.  All of the gymnastics club subjects start
with GC (Gymnastics Chat).  I am the Pres, so if you have
any questions, e-mail me... HMYU37C.  Hope to see you there!
Anne :)

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 08:33:16 -0600
From:    ***@MERLE.ACNS.NWU.EDU
Subject: Re: joint repairs

Hi Gymners -

I guess I'll stop lurking and try to respond to this one...

>Artificail joints seem to be on the topic of gymnastics since so many gymnsasts
>end up with them.

Is this really true?   Do gymnasts' joints generally wear out faster than
"normal"?   I've never seen a scientific study ...


>I have a desperate need to learn all I can about artificial joints as soon
>as possible.
>Do they REALLY work ?  Or are doctors getting rich at other peoples expense.
>Do ALL artificial joints work ?

As far as artificial joints go, orthopaedic surgeons & biomedical engineers
have made (and are continuing to make) significant progress on replacement
hips and knees.  We still have a ways to go on replacement ankles, elbows,
and shoulders.

Do they really work?  ...
The answer to this question depends on your definition of "work".   Most
joint replacements do what they are designed to do (at least for a while),
i.e. they
1.  eliminate pain (pain arises in a joint when the cartilage wears away
and bone rubs directly on bone - ouch!)
2.  permit greater range of motion and hopefully locomotion.

Joint replacements are generally not designed to handle strenuous sporting
activities, at least not today's replacements.  (I am just waiting to see
how long Bo Jackson's hip lasts...)

Note that there are many different types of replacements.  At the hip,
surgeons may replace just the acetabulum (the "cup" in the pelvis), just
the femoral head, or both (called a "TJR", or total joint replacement).
They usually try to save as much natural bone as possible.  That way, if
the replacement hip fails in 10 years, they still have some natural tissue
left to work with.

There are also many ways to attach the replacement joint to the bone.
Sometimes they use a special kind of cement.  Other times they make the
joint out of a "porous" materials and hope that the patient's own bone will
"grow" into it.

The life of a cemented prostheses depends on the life of the cement (about
10+ years).  The life of an uncemented prosthesis depends on the surgeon's
ability to get a good tight fit between the bone and prosthesis so that the
patient's bone has a stable environment in which to grow.  The life of the
joint also depends a lot on how active the user is, how much the joint is
stressed, how strong the supporting muscles are, how good the initial "fit"
was, etc.

Replacement joints can fail in several ways.  They can:
1.  fracture, due to impact or (more likely) from corrosion over time.
2.  become loose, causing pain and instability at the joint.


Right now, some of the big research areas in joint replacements are:
1.  understanding the "loosening" problem

2.  using robots in the OR -- surgeons are now experimenting with robots in
the operating room that can help them locate very precisely where to drill
and cut, etc.  from x-rays and other imaging tools.  There is some
fascinating work being done on minimally invasive knee replacement surgery
at Dartmouth.

3.  using computer-aided surgery -- surgeons are also beginning to use
computers & images of the patient to "pre-plan" the surgery and/or design
subject-specific replacement joints before the patient gets to the
operating table.  In my lab at Northwestern, we are using a computer model
of the musculoskeletal system to understand how muscle strength is affected
by various surgical procedures.


Hope I didn't bore you with all this info.  I think it is pretty exciting
stuff (not that I would want any of MY joints replaced soon ... hopefully
my  years of gymnastics didn't do too much damage).

- Allison

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 09:17:56 CDT
From:    ***@ADMIN.STEDWARDS.EDU
Subject: little girls in pretty boxe

> Has anyone besides me read "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes". This is the new
> book that exposes both gymnastics and figure skating. REALLY HARD on
> gymnastics and what it (or rather they, the coaches) are doing with kids
> physically. Like everyone says, you'll never watch a gymnastics meet again
> with the same feelings.
>
I read the book while on vacation last week.  The author was particularly rough
on Bela Karolyi, though Al Fong, Steve Nunno and Michelle Campi's coach (can't
remember his name at the moment) took quite a beating as well.  Quite a bit of
the text details the Christy Henrich and Julissa Gomez stories.  Both stories
are quite tragic, as we all know.

One thing that really annoyed me about the book was the author's habit of
repeating information already mentioned.  I'm not kidding -- she mentions at
least four times in the first half of the book that Kathy Johnson didn't begin
menstruating until the age of 25.


Cole

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 11:59:44 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: joint repairs

>As far as artificial joints go, orthopaedic surgeons & biomedical engineers
>have made (and are continuing to make) significant progress on replacement
>hips and knees.  We still have a ways to go on replacement ankles, elbows,
>and shoulders.

If I may chime in here, I understand that substantial advances have been made
in the areas of knuckles and wrists as well. While I am not an expert, for
about five years my father owned the factory that produced the steel
components of the replacement joints Allison mentioned. I can tell you for a
fact that these were our most precision products, with tolerances far
narrower than even aerospace components.

I am continuously amazed by the quality of implants and prostheses and the
miraculous work done by biomedical engineers. I simply wish the average
gymnastics coach or athlete had a set of preventative steps to take to avoid
the necessity for such tools.

David

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 15:42:25 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Olympic Pins

Now that all of the Atlanta merchandise is coming out, I was wondering if any
of you were familiar with Olympic pins.  I bought a set of general ones
yesterday, but am interested in a gymnastics set.  I saw a set for women's
gymnastics for $35.  Does anyone know if this is a good price and do they
increase in value?  Any info would be appreciated!

Ann Marie

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 17:41:03 -0400
From:    ***@FREENET.SCRI.FSU.EDU
Subject: Tumbling

Hi.  Can anyone tell me which is harder, a double front on the fx, or an
arabian double front?  And how is Kim Zmeskal doing?  Is in competitive
form? thanks.

A member of the race that knows Joseph
Angela

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 18:56:59 -0400
From:    ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject: Little Girls in Pretty Boxes

     I've read "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes," and here's my take on it.
Although I'm sure some of the negative parts are true, the author's whole
approach is just SO one-sided that I'd have to call the book irresponsible
journalism. She looks only at the negative and interviews only people who had
bad experiences or are bitter for one reason or another. So we hear a lot about
Julissa Gomez, Christy Henrich, Kristie Phillips, Kim Kelly and other people
who did indeed suffer tragedies or major letdowns, but does the author bother
to talk to Mary Lou Retton, Phoebe Mills, Kim Zmeskal or Shannon Miller? No.
She talks ABOUT Kim and Shannon in places (and paints a pretty pathetic picture
of Shannon), but doesn't give them the chance to speak for themselves. In my
opinion, if she wanted the book to be credible, she should have given equal
time to the gymnasts who do NOT have gripes, even though all of them also
suffered injuries and letdowns in their careers.
     I am not as familiar with skating, but the author seems to do the same
thing in the skating sections of the book. We hear about the skaters who had
problems, but there are no interviews with, for example, Dorthory Hamill or
Kristi Yamaguchi. Such omissions just make me think that the author approached
the whole topic with a bad attitude and a desire to tear down the sports, and
she included only the information that supported her ideas. I think if a
college student wrote a paper using that kind of "research technique," she'd
get an "F." I'm not saying the entire book is garbage - it DOES raise some
valid points and concerns - but it's only half the story. I would LOVE to hear
some rebuttals from Mary Lou, Kim, Shannon, etc.

Beth

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 19:46:09 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Olympic Shop

For all of you on America Online, check out One Hanes place in Marketplace.
 They have an Olympic shop with clothes, as well as contests and other
Olympic information.  It is new, so not everything is ready, but it is
something to keep your eye on.

Ann Marie

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Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 19:29:47 -0600
From:    ***@ZEPHYR.MEDCHEM.PURDUE.EDU
Subject: Mary Lou's rebuttle.

During the 1992 Olympics, they (NBC) ran a short segment on Bela Karolyi a
"The Romanian Cowboy" and they talked about him and his success and there was
a rather quick bit on how some thought his training bordered on the "abusive".
In this portion, there was comments from Chelle Stack who said that she is
"sacared to death of him, but not physically, mentally". Then, there was a
quick talk with Mary Lou, who was bubbling over all over, and strongly
supported her ex-boss saying "Bela's system works. It produces champions".

Now I have not read the book, but I really wonder if Kristie Philips was
really adament about her training regimne or the fact that puberty set in
on her at the worst time for traininf for the Seoul Games. I recall from
an IG interview how she was mad at how the press had made her into a
superstar and then dropped her when she failed at the 1988 Trials. She also
commented that she did not like SCATS, since they only worked out 20 hours a
week, and she liked the high pressure, intense 40 hours a week at Karolyi's
gym.

You know, one of the greatest "victims" of high pressure, high publicity,
and self-induced failure (a littel harsh, but true- even though I think she's
great) has to be Kim Zmeskal. After her her dissapointments at Barcelona,
I could easy have seen her just drop out of site, like some others have done.
I have never heard her say a bad word about the sport, and I think if anyone
has a grip about what happened to her in gymnastics, she be the strongest
candidate around.

BTW: Do they just talk about the gymnasts since the 1980's? Do they talk about
anyone in before that, such as Marcia Fredricks, Rhonda Schwandt, or even
Cathy Rigby, who "came out" about her biliema only a few years ago?


Jeff

P.S. I really find it hard to believe that the author is not selling
her book on the airwaves (TV Talk shows, especially). I am surprised that she
has not had any offers, or has she?

P.S.S. Is the author, by chance, adn ex-skater or gymnast?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:11:38 -0400
From:    ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Little Girls in Pretty Boxes

It strikes me if this author had written a balanced account of gymnastics, it
would not have been sufficiently tittilating to the
lowest-common-denomnator/inbred crowd to have sold a single copy.

MONEY is talking here, people, not facts or reality. As often as I take issue
with the way the USAG handles things, it is hardly the monster it is made out
to be. (It _may_ be a monster, but dammit, it's our monster and the only one
we have.)

David

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 21:40:48 -0400
From:    ***@GATEWAY.US.SIDWELL.EDU
Subject: Re: Mary Lou's rebuttle.

> During the 1992 Olympics, they (NBC) ran a short segment on Bela Karolyi a
> "The Romanian Cowboy" and they talked about him and his success and there was
> a rather quick bit on how some thought his training bordered on the "abusive".
> In this portion, there was comments from Chelle Stack who said that she is
> "sacared to death of him, but not physically, mentally". Then, there was a
> quick talk with Mary Lou, who was bubbling over all over, and strongly
> supported her ex-boss saying "Bela's system works. It produces champions".

Yes, I remember that segment.  I also remember another interview with
Mary Lou (I believe it was published in Newsweek, the one with Kim
Zmeskal and "It Hurts" on the front) where she was quoting as saying "You
don't hear many complaints from the winners."

Lisa

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Jun 1995 18:57:49 -0700
From:    ***@NETCOM.COM
Subject: Re: joint repairs

David Wolf
>
> >As far as artificial joints go, orthopaedic surgeons & biomedical engineers
> >have made (and are continuing to make) significant progress on replacement
> >hips and knees.  We still have a ways to go on replacement ankles, elbows,
> >and shoulders.
>
> If I may chime in here, I understand that substantial advances have been made
> in the areas of knuckles and wrists as well. While I am not an expert, for
> about five years my father owned the factory that produced the steel
> components of the replacement joints Allison mentioned. I can tell you for a
> fact that these were our most precision products, with tolerances far
> narrower than even aerospace components.

You are machining down to 1 micron tolerances now ?
WOW !

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 5 Jun 1995 to 6 Jun 1995
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