GYMN-L Digest - 30 Apr 1995 to 1 May 1995
There are 32 messages totalling 811 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Fwd: Re: Videos & Fan Clubs (3)
2. Fwd: Re: Thoughts on USA-BLR-CHN
3. NCAA Women's
4. Bogie's vault (2)
5. Coaching/spotting while on the apparatus?
6. Thoughts on USA-BLR-CHN (3)
7. Visa Challenge
8. TV Alert
9. Bonus Questions (fwd)
10. Making judges jobs harder
11. Bela as judge
12. Visa Chal-Bars Scandal
13. coaches treatment
14. Barani on beam (2)
15. Chinese Gymnast at Visa Cup: A Discussion.
16. Olympics tickets - reminder
17. Intl Gym Offcl Addresses
18. club newsletters
19. VISA Challenge and the NCAA Championships (2)
20. SI for Kids
21. 1-arm UB move values (2)
22. Coaching during performance
24. Moceanu, teams
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 23:17:02 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: Videos & Fan Clubs
Subj: Re: Videos & Fan Clubs
Date: 95-04-30 23:16:09 EDT
US Fan Club of Chinese Gymnastics
1359 La Culebra Circle
Camarillo, CA 93012
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 23:17:18 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: Thoughts on USA-BLR-CHN
Subj: Re: Thoughts on USA-BLR-CHN
Date: 95-04-30 23:13:55 EDT
>-There must be an intense level of competition amongst the Chinese girls
>hoping for Atlanta, but something suggests to me that these may not be the
>top of the younger girls undoubtedly preparing for that meet. Any thoughts
>on this subject are appreciated.
Intense is a very kind word. These kids were pretty much the "second team,"
and you saw how terriffic they were. Chances are good that you will see at
least one of them on the Atlanta team, though, if my information from Beijing
Usually, China only sends their top top people to the high prestige
international meets (Olympics, Asia Games, Worlds, etc.) To all of the other
"B" and "C" meets, they will send kids who need seasoning, or who they think
will make a good account of themselves without too much of a downside.
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 22:45:43 -0500
Subject: NCAA Women's
Date sent: 30-APR-1995 22:26:08
First, thanks for freeing the listserv, Rach. I've never had the
experience of that much mail coming in at once...it was fun.
OKie, I have some commentary on the NCAA's for women...
1)Gratz to Agina Simpkins for finally getting back in top form, and
picking the right time to do it. :) According to a friend of mine, both
Simpkins and Nneka Logan were suspended from the team earlier in the
season for a "team violation" (friend is reputable, goes to U of Georgia)
Simpkins apparently hadn't gotten back to form since (as evidenced by
the regional rankings). What a ncie way to end your collegiate career.
She looked trim, in shape, and absolutely wonderful. Simpkins' vibrant
floor routine was one of the highlights for her team.
2)Aimee Trepanier managed to totally knock my socks off on floor. It is
floor routines like hers which make me love watching collegiate floor
competition. While some may gripe she only had two passes, she (evidently)
had enough difficulty to get a 10 start, which is all that matters to me.
The routine had some of the best choergraphy I have ever seen, and the
music was awesome. Plus...she made a connection with the audience, and
it totally sold the routine.
3)Compliments to the Super Six teams for making it seem like a "team"
competition. Numerous times, athletes hit routines and ran off into a
huge group hug waiting for them at the sidelines. If they missed? No
problem there, either. Teammates were waiting to offer comfort. And...
Utah clapping on the sidelines for Trepanier got me involved (even though
I was watching on TV:))
4)Best leotards? Well, personally, I loved Utah's. They were absolutely
wonderful. But...Georgia's crushed velvet was one of the more classy
combinations I have seen on them.
5)Someone earlier commented that she wondered if these women were eligible
to compete at USA's. I dunno, but some of them certainly have the
difficulty to. Let's see...I counted several double layouts on floor (only
saw Marrow's, but I know Kim Arnold of Georgia and Stella Umeh of UCLA
also throw them, and I could be forgetting some), several full-ins
(including a laid out one from Beth Wymer, who knocked my socks off) and
vaults which would all be 9.8 value or higher. YIKES!
6)Commiserations have to be offered to Georgia fans, who defintely had
the top team in the country, at least in terms of difficulty. It seemed
that freshman nerves took over on beam, but I still am wondering what
exactly happened with Leah Brown's reverse hecht. In slow-mo replay, it
appears she caught the high bar with her wrists, and not her hands, and
that she was still rotating when she caught the bar. Who knows? Georgia
came up with yet another debacle in the Super Six, and one wonders what
she can do to get her team ready for next year.
7)With all the attention being paid to Georgia's fall, until CBS paid
note that Alabama had to count a fall on floor did I find out about it.
The fall cost them the team title. However, it was nice to see Booth
came back to hit her routine in finals (at least, it appears so, from
8)Was that Shannon Miller's floor music I heard being used by a
Utah gymnast (I think it was megan Caudle)?
9)Severe GRUMBLES to CBS for only alloting an hour. In most cases,
we only saw one routine from each rotation, did not see a complete
beam routine and only saw the Georgia falls on bars. I, for one, was
hoping to see Strong on bars, Metz and Caudle on floor, Woods on beam
(though her bars was a treat) and...MORE OF OREGON STATE!!! Gees, when
will these guys learn!
10)And, finally, congratulations to the Utah women, who managed to
perserver through what appeared to be some VERY rough times this season.
Finally, I discovered why Aimee Trepanier disappeared from the rankings,
and what a comeback she made, as did other gymnasts. Utah defined the
"team effort" concept at this meet. They may not have been the best,
in terms of difficulty and potential, but they hit the best when it
OKie, done raving now. Have a ncie night, everyone
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 22:46:59 -0500
Subject: Bogie's vault
Date sent: 30-APR-1995 22:46:37
What vault did Boginskaya perform, and are they devaluing anything
before the Atlanta games?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 00:02:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Coaching/spotting while on the apparatus?
> During the USA-BLR-CHN meet, Bela seemed to be coaching his athletes through
> several of their routines. I was under the impression that this was a 0.2
> neutral deduction.
There is such a deduction, but I think rules are looser at meets like
this. Someone said the only time it's been taken was at Pan Ams in '63,
but I remember it was taken at Goodwills in '90 off a Chinese gymnast on
UB, no? (perhaps more evidence for David's point...)
> Also, a Chinese coach spotted Meng Fei (?) during her releases. Isn't this
> 0.5 or 1.0 per instance?
> Can officials agree beforehand not to take deductions for these things?
Spotting is allowed for certain skills on UB (D's and E's? I forget the
exact rule) as long as the coach doesn't touch the gymnast. If the coach
touches her or spots skills for which spotting isn't allowed, the
deduction is 0.5.
As to whether officials can agree not to take deductions for these things
-- I believe so, like they can stipulate that extra mats may be used and
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 00:03:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Videos & Fan Clubs
How do you become a member of the Chinese fan club?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 00:07:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts on USA-BLR-CHN
> -It was nice to see Svetlana not only back but looking great, particularly on
> beam and vault. I wonder if she'll keep that vault as her first vault,
> though, since it's being devalued. In a way I hope she does, as she's right
> up there with Pod in terms of form. Certainly looks [if political issues can
> be resolved], as if she could still be in the top 3 in Belarus.
Her form is great, but I thought she did practically a back layout 1/2.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 00:12:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Visa Challenge
> Now, I have a question, Why did Dom M. get peanalized .3 for posting the
> wrong vault? What is the purpose of this rule? I was disappointed to see
> her score scaled down over something like that. Any ideas?
Because dem's da rules. Flash the wrong vault, lose 0.3. I guess the
purpose is to let the judges know what to expect, since vault goes by
*so* fast, you don't want to catch them by surprise. The men, however,
don't have this penalty. A while back we had a debate about whether it's
a good rule or not.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 06:09:03 -0400
Subject: TV Alert
On Thursday May 4th at 8 PM EDT CBS will air a special called "Where Are They
Now?" that will feature Bart Conner & Nadia Comaneci among others - like
Tonya Harding, Lorena Bobbit, & Free Willy - to see what happened to
notables after thier 15 or so minutes of fame.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 09:32:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Bonus Questions (fwd)
> two mixed or gym elements also have bonus. But you can get 0.1 for the
> piked Chen itself because it is a D (if difficulty requirements have been
> fulfilled without it).
Oops... sorry, this is wrong. A piked Chen is a C.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 09:34:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Making judges jobs harder
A bit belated, but...
> I thought there was a judge who decides what bonus to give and who looks
> at the difficulty/requirements. So, it wouldn't really be making the judges
> jobs harder, if we gave each skill a number instead of a letter, only the
> person who checks for bonus.
There is such a judge, called the "scientific technical collaborator"
(don't ask me who came up with that title). But at many smaller meets,
there isn't the luxury of having one person who just does that without
also judging. Also, it's good for other judges to be figuring out the
start value too, just in case (although at meets like Worlds and
Olympics, they're not allowed to challenge the STC's start value). And
the expert judge is supposed to both judge and calculate the start
value. So theoretically, only the STC's and expert's jobs would be
harder, but it's not so simple when you consider meets that aren't as
elaborate as Worlds and Olympics and the like.
Here's a thought -- specialized judges. All the judges would still be
competent to judge every event, but would concentrate on one or two that
they would be experts in.
Also, does anyone know how feasible it would be to use computers on vault?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 09:35:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Bela as judge
Also a bit belated...
> A technical program would be interesting, but I kind of like
> compulsories - in skaing and gymnastics. It really shows the different
> gymnasts strengths AND weaknesses. As for having a program with no
> requirements whe almost anything goes, that would be fun for a while, but
> impressive though it may be, how would you like to see ONLY as many
> tumbling runs as a gymnast could fit into 1.5 minutes, with nothing else?
> Or the same release move done about 20 times making up the whole bar
> routine? Yeah, it would look pretty cool the first few times you saw it,
> but what about a few years later when EVERYONE'S doing only that? I say
> SOME restrictions should apply, just to prevent monotony.
I didn't mean to suggest absolutely zero restrictions, just minimal
ones. For example, is it really necessary to have a full turn on one
foot on BB for it to be a well-composed set? Same with the ever more
elaborate gym and mixed series on floor. I actually think they detract
from many routines. There is no question in my mind that many routines
from ten years ago, when these requirements didn't exist, are superior in
choreography to what we see now. I would keep stuff like a maximum
number of times you can do the same skill and get credit, so we wouldn't
get routines showing the same release 20 times. But I haven't thought
through every detail of this (I will someday).
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 09:38:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Bogie's vault
> Date sent: 30-APR-1995 22:46:37
> What vault did Boginskaya perform, and are they devaluing anything
> before the Atlanta games?
Hristakieva (Yurchenko 1/2 twist to layout front, but IMHO Bogi's looked
more like a back layout 1/2). As of June it's being devalued from 10 to
9.90. Layout Rudi on FX goes from E to D and Popa on FX from D to C.
That's all I remember.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 15:51:46 +0200
Subject: Re: Visa Chal-Bars Scandal
I didn't see the competition but here are my views on the one arm thingy.
I think that it's great that the Chinese ar emoving ahead of everyone
else on bars because they deserve it. I'm glad we're getting some new
releases Jaegers and Tkatchevs were getting boring. Khorkina is the only
gymnast who does as good a bar as the Chinese.
I would love to see the one arm gienger and the Gaylord and I think the
one arm giant and Gienger deserve to be a D and an E. It wasn't so long
ago that the normal giant was a C.
Just had to get my bit in,
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 10:49:51 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on USA-BLR-CHN
>Originally, they assigned the one-arm giant a B, and the one-arm
>Gienger a C. After all the controversy, they assigned it a C and a
What is the value of a Gienger in Women's scoreing.
In Men's a Gienger is a C a one-arm Gienger a D.
an over-grip one-arm is an A.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 12:06:49 -0500
Subject: coaches treatment
Just had to write and comment on treatment of gymnasts. I have been a
gymnast all of my life, coach a high school team, own a private gym, etc.
and I must say that NO gymnast/student/person deserves to be hit for any
reason. In all of my experiences, I have been luck enough not to be in
that situation as a student, but I have seen it occur in other gyms. I
can assure you that not all gyms allow that to happen. Helen - please get
yourself into another gym situation. Life is short enough! The sport that
you train in and love should not be a place for abuse and humiliation. YOU
are the most important thing, not your ability to live up to your coach's
expectations at all times. Good luck to you!
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 14:00:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Videos & Fan Clubs
Give me your mailing address and I'll have them send you information.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 15:49:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts on USA-BLR-CHN
> What is the value of a Gienger in Women's scoreing.
> In Men's a Gienger is a C a one-arm Gienger a D.
> an over-grip one-arm is an A.
A Gienger is a D. Nothing with one arm is in the Code yet. The values
assigned for USA/CHN/BLR were provisional for that meet only, until the
skills do make their way into the Code. Of course, with lousy ratings
like that, they may not get into the Code at all, because the gymnasts
may not bother with them. Example: at Birmingham a handspring onto the
board, handspring front vault was submitted (I saw a tape of it, too,
from podium practice -- looked cool), but because it was rated the same
as a regular handspring front, the gymnast didn't throw it in the meet
(or at least I was told that was the reason).
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 13:41:00 PDT
Subject: Barani on beam
Cristina Grigoras (ROM) and Iveta Polokova (CZE) were known
for this. Grigoras even usually made it.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 17:10:37 -0400
Subject: Chinese Gymnast at Visa Cup: A Discussion.
I have to say that I was completely impressed by the level of difficulty
which the young and inexperienced Chinese gymnasts were working with at
the Visa Cup. I would love to have seen the other gymnasts, but since we
only see what ABC decides to air, not much that I can do.
My only complaint about the coverage that ABC did was the stupidity of
Bart and Kathy over the scoring of the chinese gymnasts uneven bars. Though
I agree that the value of the one arm skills and the the difficulty should
merit high scores, I accept this arguemnet when the gymnast can support a
high'y dificult trick with a strong solid routine. Both gymnasts are
perfect examples of what you do NOT want to see the sport turn into: A
battle of fearless 12 yr olds who can do super difficult tricks but who
have problems with their basic moves. Though both chinese gymnasts shown
could do big releases, both had bad results with their transition moves.
One gymnast fell, wheras the other end in a dead hang. This is just not
acceptable (IMHO) since the bars should be a non-stop event, and a dead
hang should be penalized, since it is a mistake.
I full agree with the score given to the chinese gymnast who did not fall
yet landed in a dead hang.
AS for taking gymnastics away from the one-arm: I can support this for
safety reasons. I am sure, however, the one arm front giant is not far
off in the future. When will women be doing full twisting fronts? What about
Kovacs? Double tucks over the bar? Triple Flyaways?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 14:30:20 -0700
Subject: Olympics tickets - reminder
Today is the first day to request tickets for the Olympics. The official
order form can be picked up at Home Depots across the U.S. Not sure about
other countries. In Atlanta Krogers also has them.
One of the Atlanta papers had a pretty good rundown of how to fill out the
order form. It looked fairly straightforward.
If your heart's set on getting Women's event final tix you probably should
have been waiting at the store bright and early this morning. Historically
(at least since '72) this has been very popular. I'm going to try for men's
AA finals: Here in the U.S. those might be easier to come by.
The paper made an interesting observation: In Barcelona, rhythmic gymnastics
tickets were the first to sell out of all of the events. But that was in
Spain. Maybe in Atlanta they might be easier to get. And they're *much*
cheaper than artistic tickets!
I noticed on the schedule that they are selling tickets for podium training.
They cost $11 and $22 and there are four sessions: Mens' and women's
optionals and compulsories. They essentially run all day and there is one
per day. Don't remember the dates but I believe they are the 15th through
the nineteenth of July (but don't take my word for it and go out and buy plane
The podium training seems like a real steal. Tickets are relatively cheap
compared to finals (which are a couple hundred dollars for so-so seats). You
get to be there from around 9am until 7pm or so. And you can see what tricks
people are throwing and what kind of shape they look to be in. Plus (a *big*
plus) is that these tickets might be easier to come by. If you've got a
friend that lives in Atlanta, (aren't those the words to a song?) i.e. a
place to crash for free, this might be just the ticket! You can check out
the podium training, make some predictions and then go and watch the
Olympics at your friends house and see if your predictions come true.
Yours in Gymnastics,
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 17:32:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Intl Gym Offcl Addresses
Do any of these or the officials have Internet addresses//?Don
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 16:57:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Barani on beam
On Mon, 1 May 1995, Brett wrote:
> Cristina Grigoras (ROM) and Iveta Polokova (CZE) were known
> for this. Grigoras even usually made it.
I just checked -- it has Grigoras' name on it in the Code. Btw, not to
be confused with an aerial roundoff, which is also known as a barani.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 16:55:00 PDT
Subject: club newsletters
The gym club my daughter attends is starting a newsletter to improve
communication about happenings at the club. How many other clubs have
Would you be willing to send me , by snail mail, a copy of your newsletter?
I would be happy to provide you with a stamped self-addressed envelope.
Please give me your snail mail address in your email message or by snail
Thank you for your help.
Arta Dobbs, Editor, C.A.T.S. Club News
c/o C.A.T.S .
Cheshire, CT 06410
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 17:02:48 -0400
Subject: VISA Challenge and the NCAA Championships
Item Subject: Message text
Hi everyone! I just wanted to offer a few impressions of the
competitions that were on T.V. this past weekend. Being from Atlanta,
it was very sad to see the demise of Georgia once again. But, I guess
Utah proved that consistency can win a gymnastics meet. I was really
not impressed with very many of their rountines, but they definitely hit
cold! I have a question, though. How did Aimee Trepanier get a 9.9 on
floor with only 2 tumbling passes? Did that rountine really come out of
I attended the event finals and I was ABSOLUTELY AMAZED by Jenny Hansen!
The short clip on television failed to do her justice. It was
especially amazing to me to compare her warm-up to her actual
competitive rountine--I guess that's why she's a champion!!! But, she
fell 3 times during beam warm-up and then rocked a 10.0 set!! It
included: a front on mount, back handspring, 2 layouts (the only one in
finals, if I remember correctly), a punch front, back handspring to a
split leap with a HALF TURN and a double full dismount...all done
perfectly!! In addition, she did full-ins on bars and floor! My
question is: Where was she before she attended Kentucky? INMO, the
U.S. National team could have really used her!!
About the VISA Challenge. First of all, I was so impressed by Bogi
(even though she missed the arabian double front on floor). I must
admit I was quite skeptical about her ability to make a successful
comeback at the age of 22. But, I am now a believer!! It's incredible
that she's actually do more difficulty now then when she retired! The
only other time I saw her do a full-in off bars was at the event finals
of the '89 Worlds...6 years ago! BTW, do any of our judges know what
the start value of her UB routine was? I thought a 9.5 seemed a little
low. But, I guess the scoring was tight throughout. But, I was most
surprised about her HUGE SMILE-even during her beam rountine!! It was
great to see!!
But, I definitely think the Chinese team was way underscored on bars and
beam and I applaude Bart and Kathy for saying so! I personally thought
the one-armed giant on UB was great! Of course, it could be cleaned up
a little, but I think new innovations are the correct direction of the
sport. Any other opinions?!!
Finally, I think we've seen the true arrival of Dominique Moceanu. I
know her AA win was somewhat tainted by Dom Dawes' withdrawal, but it
was still an international victory. This was the first time I've gotten
to see all her optional rountines and I thought she looked really good
(especially on vault and beam). She has alot of difficulty and
relatively good form on V,BB, and FX. She impressed me even more than
Jennie Thompson, I think. Also, I know many people will disagree with
me, but I thought it was neat seeing Bela around again.
Anyway, that's my very long two cents! Any other feelings about these
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 18:06:19 -0400
Subject: SI for Kids
The latest issue of SI for kids has photos of Kristie Phillips (as an
example of back flexibility) and Lance Ringnald, plus a photo and small story
on Dominique Moceanu.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 18:23:50 -0400
Subject: Re: 1-arm UB move values
| -*What* were the values assigned to the one-arm giant and one-arm Geinger?
Originally, they assigned the one-arm giant a B, and the one-arm
Gienger a C. After all the controversy, they assigned it a C and a
"C and D"?? Ha. Maybe in the 1988 Code (before E's)!
Who is "they"? FIG tech? Were they there? Does "after all the
controversy..." mean that the subject is closed? I should hope that FIG
seriously reviews what went on here. I would think that new moves like that
get the highest level of difficulty & bonus assigned to it until at least 10
other gymnasts perform it at Worlds/Olympics. You can BET that China will be
sending this young lady to the next Worlds to get the moves reviewed!
Out of curiousity, what did men get these moves valued at when they were
first performed (WAY back then)?
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 18:33:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Coaching during performance
During the USA-BLR-CHN meet, Bela seemed to be coaching his athletes through
several of their routines. I was under the impression that this was a 0.2
Last time I judged, it was in the Code. In Ontario, coaches and even the
audience were strictly forbidden from verbal coaching during performance.
You couldn't even cheer and yell "stick!" from the stands to encourage
someone to stick a landing. Deductions were taken ... often.
Now, I'm sure you won't hear a peep out of Mr. Karolyi at a Worlds or
Olympics. I've seen how restrained he is at Worlds. But in the show biz
world of the USA, it's a different story. To put a microphone on the man
seems to encourage this behaviour while it's clearly prohibited in the Code.
But would any judge at a "show biz" meet dare to take a deduction? I don't
So, did any of you go out and apply for a VISA card today? ;^)
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 16:34:40 -0600
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 21:45:03 -0400
Subject: Re: 1-arm UB move values
> "C and D"?? Ha. Maybe in the 1988 Code (before E's)!
> Who is "they"? FIG tech? Were they there? Does "after all the
> controversy..." mean that the subject is closed? I should hope that FIG
> seriously reviews what went on here. I would think that new moves like that
> get the highest level of difficulty & bonus assigned to it until at least 10
> other gymnasts perform it at Worlds/Olympics. You can BET that China will be
> sending this young lady to the next Worlds to get the moves reviewed!
"They" is the technical director of the meet and the judges. Skills not
in the Code that a gymnast plans to do have to be submitted in advance to
get a provisional rating for that meet. The rating is for that meet
*only*. When the gymnast plans to do it at Worlds or Olympics, she submits
a form with a description of the skill to the Women's Technical
Committee of the FIG, and they give it a rating. If the skill is performed
successfully during the meet, it becomes a permanent part of the Code
(well, as permanent as anything in the Code can be) with the rating it
was given by the WTC.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 22:08:31 -0400
Subject: Moceanu, teams
Exacty how was the US team decided? Also for the Belarus and China teams.
Were any of these gymnasts at team worlds?
For Dominique moceanu-was there a deduction for that hop after front layout?
Are you supposed to hop or just stick the pass? I thought the meet was
mostly underscored, especially for the Chinese. I thought dominique m looked
great. Bela must like oldies songs like twist and rock around the clock.
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 22:14:28 -0400
Subject: Re: VISA Challenge and the NCAA Championships
On Mon, 1 May 1995, Amy Scherer wrote:
> of the '89 Worlds...6 years ago! BTW, do any of our judges know what
> the start value of her UB routine was? I thought a 9.5 seemed a little
> low. But, I guess the scoring was tight throughout. But, I was most
I remember the routine generally, but if you can describe the sequence
exactly, including where she hit handstands (within 10 degrees), I'll
figure it out.
End of GYMN-L Digest - 30 Apr 1995 to 1 May 1995