gymn Digest Sun, 3 Apr 94 Volume 2 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:
Campi Question (2 msgs)
campi update
Fwd: Re: Missing Out...
Goodwill Games/Worlds Team (2 msgs)
look-alikes
M. Campi's injury
M. Campi's injury (was PLEASE READ IMPORTANT)
Marsden on probation (3 msgs)
Missing Out (2 msgs)
Missing Out... (4 msgs)
Missing Out/Long-lived FXs
Protests (2 msgs)
US Worlds team (2 msgs)

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 10:06:21 EST
From: ***@eos.ncsu.edu
Subject: Campi Question

Hello fellow Gymn'ers

I was wondering, since Michelle trains at Pozsar's (which is in
Sacramento, right?) , could we not send a get-well message through
them instead of sending it through USA Gymnastics in Indy?

--Brent

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 13:07:00 -0600 (CST)
From: <***@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Campi Question

Brent asks:
| I was wondering, since Michelle trains at Pozsar's (which is in
| Sacramento, right?) , could we not send a get-well message through
| them instead of sending it through USA Gymnastics in Indy?

Of course you can. It probably wouldn't be any quicker though, as the
USGF is no doubt overnighting them.

The only reason Lynn and I suggested USAG is because it's easier to
keep track of one address for all gymnasts. Any time you want to send
any mail to any famous gymnast, even foreign, you can mail it to the
USGF. It's much more convenient than keeping track of and updating
several different addresses which often change. For instance, I've
already seen three different addresses for Pozsar's, and I don't know
which one is correct.

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 21:02:49 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: campi update

just heard.......she has come out of the intenseive care and is recovering
.......she has all motion and feeling in her arms and legs.....thank
god.......but her future with gymnatics is not so bright .........she was the
hardest working ,and the most determined person i have ever known.......not
to mention great kid............lots of cards and good wishes would make her
day..........send them in care of the usa gymnastics and they will foward
them to her........Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 18:57:23 PST
From: ***@eworld.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Missing Out...


---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Missing Out...
Date: 94-04-02 18:48:56 pst
From: ChinaHand

I think Mara's analysis was right on, especially (for obvious reasons) the
part about the Chinese.

One thing to say about the Chinese, though, is that they have experienced an
unprecedented flight of talented gymnasts and coaches from the sport.
Gymnastics is becoming an unwitting victim of China's economic development,
which is drawing her talented and famous into the new private sector.

Two trends may reverse this. First, there is a growing flood of ex-Soviet
coaches coming down into China for some outstanding opportunities. When I was
a guest at the 7th China Games in Beijing last summer, I had a chance to meet
several. Their proteges are uniformly strong.

The other trend is the support of the new gymnast-capitalists for the sport.
Led by Li Ning and Tong Fei, the brightest stars in China's gymnastic
firmament, these gymnasts who have left the sport and made good are
reinvesting in the sport that put them there. Li Ning has built a gym here in
the U.S., and is building a 5-story, 100,000 square foot training facility in
southern China. He is also now manufacturing the highest quality apparatus
and mats ever made in China, allowing even small, local gyms to afford
excellent equipment. Tong Fei is also building a gym, and has started to
compete with Li Ning in the equipment arena.

To watch the Chinese train is a beautiful sight. They are strong, happy,
disciplined, and in some cases (like that of Li Xiaoshuang and his older
brother Dashuang) are reaching beyond their coaches and really pushing the
edge of the envelope.

David

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 22:18:54 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@delphi.com
Subject: Goodwill Games/Worlds Team

Now that we know who will be comprising our Worlds team in Australia, does
anyone know how we will choose our women's Goodwill Games Team?

Also, will we have a Worlds Team Trials for the comp in November?

Tasha

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 00:59:10 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Goodwill Games/Worlds Team

"will we have a Worlds Team Trials for the comp in November?

Yes, there will be a regular and public trials for both the men's and womens'
team before the November team worlds in Dortmond, Germany. As for the Women's
Goodwill team (4 athletes), I haven't heard anything but know that the men
were picked for that at the same time they were for Brisbane (Winter Cup, 5
Feb. '94) so that may (??) be the case for the women as well. Anybody else?

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Apr 1994 16:43:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
Subject: look-alikes

Somebody mentioned a while ago to start a look-alike list on here. In
April IG, p. 40, is a picture of Kim Young of the Colorado Ariels doin' the
best Omelianchik impression I've ever seen, down to the smile and great leg
extension! Anyone else see it?
Cara

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 23:12:15 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: M. Campi's injury

How likely is this to be a career ending injury? I mean, she has had SO MANY
serious injuries. How many more can she take?

Mara

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Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 17:00:09 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: M. Campi's injury (was PLEASE READ IMPORTANT)

>*sigh* Seems to be a semi-rash of elite neck injuries

I've been told Michelle's injury was a back injury (which also squares,
correct me if I'm wrong, with the part about the wires for stabilizing the
vertebrae; I don't think those are used in neck injuries).

-- Gimnasta

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Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 12:12:45 -0800 (PST)
From: <***@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Marsden on probation

> I feel that a 1-year probation placed on Marsden is way too harsh, if not
> downright wrong.
> ...
> Yes, maybe pulling his team off the floor wasn't exactly a sportsman-like
> thing to do, but sometimes you have to make a point, a point that you
> disagree with the handling of a situation.
> Placing Marsden on probation for an entire year for what boils down to a
> minor infraction and a coaching decision seems very, very wrong.
> What's next? Penalizing a team because the crowd boos?
> ---Ron in Fla.
>

I disagree with this opinion. What Marden did, in his usual childish
way, was deprive the fans, BYU's athlete's and his own athletes of the
competition which was supposed to have taken place.

There are acceptable ways of dealing with judging decisions with
which a coach disagrees, and pulling a team out of a competition
is not one of them. If Marden felt that his team was wrongly penalized,
he should have filed an inquisition form and, as the strongest
acceptable action, announced that he was continuing the competition
under protest. As a coach and role-model (you get one with the other),
he is setting a poor example by his "take my ball and go home"
attitude.

Anything more harsh than a year's probation might have been too much,
but really, what does probation amount to? He just has to think
about his actions for the next year and be sure that he doesn't
make such a ridiculous coaching decision in the future. (That's
assuming that it is Marsden who is on probation and not Utah.)

<But that's just my opinion> :)

-Patrick
------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 04:37:37 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Marsden on probation
To: gymn@MIT.EDU

>Univ. of Utah women's head coach Greg Marsden was reprimanded and
placed on one year of probation yesterday by Chris Hill, University
Athletic Director, for pulling his squad off the floor during the meet
with BYU.

Who will serve as head coach in the meantime?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 12:37:15 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Marsden on probation

Someone asked who serves as coach while Utah Head Coach is on probation.
Being on probation does not mean he leaves as head coach. He remains as
head coach, but probation means he can be fired or fined if he screws up
again.
-- Ron

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Date: Sun, 3 Apr 94 00:32:00 BST
From: ***@genie.geis.com
Subject: Missing Out

I also admire the technical perfection of the Soviet gymnasts. There
were/are very few gymnasts in the same class, and no one could compare when
it came to FX choreography and dance.

But I like a good debate, too. So, at the risk of pissing everyone off,
I'll try the opposing side here:

>It's just very hard to deny the amazing standards set by the Soviet system
>in their heyday.

Actually, it can be argued that the Japanese men were the leaders in the
sport for nearly 2 decades. In head-to-head Olympic competition, Japan won
5 *consecutive* team titles ('60-'76) to the Soviets' total of 4 ('52, '56,
'88, '92). Japan also has the edge on the USSR for individual medals won
from 1960 to 1976:

All-Around Medals: Event Finals Medals:

JPN: 3G, 5S, 3B = 11 JPN: 14G, 16S, 18B = 48
URS: 4G, 2S, 3B = 9 URS: 24G, 12S, 9B = 45

The same is true of the World Champs: another 5 consecutive team titles for
Japan ('62-'78), with silver for the Soviets during this period. Even with
Bilozerchev, the USSR still lost the team title to China in 1983.

The Soviet women's team was a more dominant force (never losing the Olympic
team gold - excluding '84 - and finishing second in the Worlds only 3
times). However, they were unable to contend with the likes of Caslavska,
Janz, Comaneci, Gnauck, Silivas, Dobre, and Zmeskal. The last Soviet woman
to win both an Olympic AA and EF gold medal was Larissa Latynina (1960).
Olympic champs. Turischeva ('72), Davydova ('80), Shushunova ('88), and
Gutsu ('92) were unable to win any event finals. But as a team, the USSR
women were unbeatable.

>Triples off UB in '89, 6 or 7 girls throwing fulls on (and onto) beam in a
>single meet before it was common,

One triple back off UB does not a great gymnast make. Kozlova (the triple
back kid) had some amazing elements, but her technique left much to be
desired and she was seriously lacking in dance training. As for throwing
fulls on B, both Szabo (ROM) and Shishova (URS) performed a tucked full at
the '83 Europeans, and Garrison (USA) performed a RO, tucked full as her B
mount at the '85 Worlds.

>Without the Soviets to chase (and chase them the world did - they did the
>hard stuff first....

If the Soviets did the "hard stuff" first, then why are there so many "non-
Soviet" inventions? For example:

Tsukahara, Yamashita, Kasamatsu, Kovacs, Gaylord releases, Cuervo, Yamawaki,
Guczoghy, Thomas flair, Magyar travel, Endo, Gienger, Xiao Ruizhi, Deltchev,
Def, Jaeger, Comaneci salto and dismount, Rulfova, Stalder, Popa, Radochla,
Yang Bo jump, Li Li turn, Garrison, Pak salto, Talavera flair, McNamara
mount...

>Several teams are good but no one is GREAT.

Compare the size and population of the USSR to a much smaller country such
as Romania, East and West Germany, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Hungary,
Bulgaria, Italy, Spain -- all of which have won European titles. When you
consider that these countries were able to hold their own in the sport
against the largest country in the world, THAT is great.

Happy Easter to all!

Debbie


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 23:47:20 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Missing Out

>Turischeva ('72), Davydova ('80), Shushunova ('88), and
Gutsu ('92) were unable to win any event finals. But as a team, the >USSR
women were unbeatable

Did you/could you double-check? I thought Turischeva won a gold on floor,
but I don't have my book to check.

-- Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 04:25:15 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Missing Out...

Mail seems to have dried up a bit again so I'll attempt to start a lively
disscussion, arguement, vast praise for my wisdom and clverness...whatever
comes to mind.

Does anyone out there miss the Soviet gymansts as much as I (and those I
cavort with) do? I'm not talking about a specific gymnast but the precise
technical style, the amazing diffculty, and the downright compelteness of the
Sovs of old. You used to be able to look at a kid you've never seen before
and know they were going ot be great before you ever saw them perform just by
the "CCCP" ("SSSR for those of that are cryillacly impaired) on their back.
I'm not saying that there's never been a good gymnast from another country,
etc., etc. so don't freak out on me or anything. It's just very hard to deny
(though there are,I'm sure, those that will try) the amazing standards set by
the Soviet system in their heyday. How many outstanding gymnsts did we see -
those of us who scam meets from everywhere in the world blinking at fuzzy
home video, trying to recognize people by the way they stick a dismount or
enter the RO since the tape your watching was shot from the 23nd row without
zoom, in soft focus...sound familer to anyone but me? Anyway, I digress...
How many Soviets doing things that blew our minds dissappeared never to be
heard from again. For those of you that have been blessed (or cursed?) with
home video of the Soviet nationals/Moscow News meets you may
remember...Triples off UB in '89, 6 or 7 girls throwing fulls on (and onto)
beam in a single meet before it was common,
Kovacs-Tkatchev-Tkatchev-Tkatchev-Geinger (all in combo) with a stuck triple
off in '91 (okay so that was Kharkov and he's not exactly an unkown, just an
unhealthy, gymnast but damn that's SO cool!), a team of six where 4 could
throw triples on floor, and on and on, all (or at least most) coming from
complete unknowns whom we never saw in the Western World. I think Trevor Low
(BAGA "The Gymnast" ed.) said it best with this "...the days of Bilozerchev
(shameless personal plug for my fav) & Gogoladaze...Kolyvanov and Karlsche
(speaking of people that vanished) now those were the days of TOTAL RESPECT
for the Red onslaught. They are still good, still the best, BUT...the gap is
closing." He was talking about the '93 Men's Jr. Euros but it truly applies
to the gym world as a whole. (Low's way cool; read his stuff if you can get
your hands on it - smart, funny, and technical)

Almost as sad as the Soviet demise (they haven't moved Lenin yet so I still
hold out hope & was anyone elses's first thought when they heard about the
coup "Ohmygod what if they don't send their team to Indy?") is the fact that
there is no clear successor to their greatness. Several teams are good but
no one is GREAT. Without the Soviets to chase (and chase them the world did -
they did the hard stuff first and best [read P-E-F-E-C-T-L-Y] and by the time
the world caught up they were warming up with what they considered old hat)
... what's the point?

Consider, if you will, the list of gone with out a trace "nobodys" (and a
few that were "somebodys" for 5 seconds) that stunned us with difficulty and
beauty only to fall of the face of the Earth (they gotta' be somewhere...
maybe with that lone sock you always pull out of the dryer)...Chudina,
Dudnik, Vorobiev (not Voropaev though he's been missing a while too),
Schepotskin, Ivanova, Abrashitova (had to say that Nance), Abdeeva,
Tumilovich, Lebedenskayia (beauty incarnate), Kut, Kolyvanov (the 11 year old
Euro Jr. champ who wowed them all and then never got farther than alternate
to an Olympic team), and on and on into virutal infinity...

Susan

PS-Yes, I am aware that I can't spell; it is some sort of genetic defect
please forgive me

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 15:02:19 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Missing Out...

I, too, miss the Soviets. Even though their training methods were
questionable, they pushed the rest of the world to be better.
It is my sincerest belief that women's gymnastics would be more advanced
right now if the Soviet team was still around. Look at the U.S., for example.
Take away Dominique and Shannon and what do you have? Yes, you still have a
good team, but you have a team that probably would have lost to any Soviet
team (or Romanian team, for that matter) from1988 onward. Losing Bela Karoyli
was a big loss, too. Like the Soviets, his training methods were
questionable, but he, too, pushed everyone.
Of course, he and the Soviets raise the ethical questions of whether
their ends justified their means. Perhaps not.
--- Ron

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 17:13:40 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Missing Out...

>there is no clear successor to their greatness. Several teams are good but
no one is GREAT.

I have a feeling that the Chinese will be the eventual successors (not right
away, but maybe in 5 or 10 years)

>Without the Soviets to chase (and chase them the world did -
they did the hard stuff first and best [read P-E-F-E-C-T-L-Y] and by the time
the world caught up they were warming up with what they considered old hat)

My strongest impressions still are of the Sov women at 85 Worlds seeming to
dominate everything (with the exception of baby Silivas on beam and not
making bar finals) and the Sov men at 88 Olympics wiping the floor with
everyone else

>You used to be able to look at a kid you've never seen before
and know they were going ot be great before you ever saw them perform just by
the "CCCP" ("SSSR for those of that are cryillacly impaired) on their back.

Can't agree with that 100% of the time (99% of the time yes). Ironically
enough, the one I was unimpressed by was your namesake, Stobi, at 90/91
AmCup/Mixed Pairs. She had incredible difficulty, but looked like she was
swallowing a hamster attempting it. Also, be sure to send me a telegram
when she gets a new floor set.

>How many Soviets doing things that blew our minds dissappeared never to be
heard from again.

I know what you're saying, but how much of that was through forced
attrition/career-ending injury?

-Even if Ukraine wanted to try to develop a program to match the old Rodina,
I don't think they could, simply because of raw population loss. One reason
for the depth was the amount of kids funneled into the sport (one reason why
I think the long-term future is bright for China).

Please don't send nasty notes...

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 23:24:51 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Missing Out...

I cried at the medal ceremony for the team competition at Barcelona because
it was the end of Soviet gymnastics. I try to keep in mind that the world
can otherwise do without the Soviet Union.

-- Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Apr 94 00:43:57 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Missing Out/Long-lived FXs

Just a quickie re Stovbchataya's floor routine ...

I have a horrible video, as Susan described, of the Drushba '87 meet. But you
can hear the music and recognize hurdles.

Guess who has the same routine she competed through at least '93?

Yup, our old pal Stovbchataya.

By contrast, Kalinina's only dates from '90 or so. Wonder how she ever
remembers it?!

They don't even keep compulsories around that long, except for those of us
who remember what was the USGF Class III compulsory ca. 1974-5 through 1979,
which became the Class IV compulsory in 1980 through '83 or '84. At age 11, I
had to teach it to 13- and 14-year-olds who did not know their right from
their left.

Amazingly, I don't have nightmares. But I can still do the routine. Wanna
see?

Have a happy handstand,
Nancy

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Date: Sun, 27 Mar 94 22:24:00 BST
From: ***@genie.geis.com
Subject: Protests

Gimnasta asked:

>What do people think about athletes protesting results in this and other
>ways?

Bonaly's actions during the award ceremony were in very poor taste and
judgment (in my opinion) and almost certainly cost her any sympathy she may
have received otherwise.

Offhand, I can think of two protests in gymnastics:

1. Ma Yanhong refused to attend the UB award ceremony at the '81 Moscow
Worlds, where she won the silver behind Gnauck.

2. The walk-out by the ROM women's team at the '77 European Champs. during
B finals to protest the "underscoring" of Comaneci in the V and UB
finals. Comaneci had already performed on B and had the highest
combined score (with Ungureanu still to perform). The Romanians left,
Comaneci was disqualified, and Mukhina won the B gold.

I can understand Bonaly's disappointment -- or anyone's for that matter --
of losing a gold medal by the slimmest of margins, but isn't a silver or
bronze medal better than no medal at all?

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Debbie


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 00:20:45 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@dorsai.dorsai.org>
Subject: Protests

Debbie asked:

> Gimnasta asked:
>
> >What do people think about athletes protesting results in this and other
> >ways?
>
> Bonaly's actions during the award ceremony were in very poor taste and
> judgment (in my opinion) and almost certainly cost her any sympathy she may
> have received otherwise.
>
> Offhand, I can think of two protests in gymnastics:
>
>
> Debbie
>
>

Let's put all this in perspective:

Kerry Huston had a serious accident at Winter Cup, Michele Campi does it
practicing Olympic Compulsories, and we concern ourselves with protests?

Any sport should be for enjoyment and good health. If we lose site of
that we lose everything, and the medals will not really be appreciated
later in life.

As a coach and judge, I can't really get into a discussion of the myriad
protests when our best and brightest are getting seriously and (most
likely) permanently hurt.

The only advice I can give my gymnasts about the scores is that you have
to be so good the judges can't take it away from you, and even then
mistakes happen. That's the nature of sports. You've got to have an
appreciation of that in this sport or you won't last long. If you can't
enjoy it, there's not much other reason to be out there - you won't get
rich, and you risk your life everytime you go up. That doesn't mean I
don't get upset when scores are off, but we need to keep it in
perspective. Having seen (on the high school) the pain caused to a group
of athletes when another group did not go up on the podium to get their
second place medals, I fully recognize the unspostsmanlike attitude that
behavior radiates. It has no place in our sport. One of the great
strengths of our sport is that our athletes support each other regardless
of the teams they are on. even if the outside world doesn't understand
what's involved, the gymnasts know what it took to do that winning exercise.

Let's hope our kids stay healthy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 04:37:32 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: US Worlds team

Now that Classic is over, what does eveyone think the prospects are for
Shannon, Dom, Amanda, and Larissa come Aussie?

Also, will Larissa get to compete AA prelims (not that it'll probably make
much of a difference)?

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 09:36:55 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: US Worlds team

" will Larissa get to compete AA prelims

>From what I understand there will be no qualifying comp. for the AA. Each
country can put in any three gymnasts it likes. The EF will have a qualifying
that will be held prior to the AA finals. The EF will be the last part of the
comp. as usual.

Susan

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End of gymn Digest
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