gymn Digest Wed, 30 Mar 94 Volume 2 : Issue 95

Today's Topics:
Bios
Forgot something
Full Results (Seniors (AA))
Gymnastics Videos
Machelle Campi
meet behavior
Partial Results
Peachtree Classic (2 msgs)
Protests (7 msgs)
Results (hot off the press)
Results (junior)
Resutls (Senior indivaual events)
The popularity of gymnastics (4 msgs)
Tkatchev front

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

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Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 17:06:00 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Bios

I have recived several request for bios on different athelets. I
currently have bio's on about 20 active gymnast(male and female), so I will
start posting them one at a time with their name as the subject. I will
be starting back to school (post Spring Break) and so will have less time
to post, but I will try to post a few every week.

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 16:10:49 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Forgot something

>From the AA standings, the top ten (seniors) are Team USA and the top 15
qualify for national. The juniors the top 12 (i think) are Team USA and
the top 15 are set for national.


Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 15:46:13 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Full Results (Seniors (AA))

AA Standings
1. Dawes 77.580
2. Amanda Borden 75.480
3. Larissa Fontaine 74.930
4. Kellee Davis 74.620
5. Jennie Thompson 74.180 (goog job)
6. Marianna Webster 74.130 (good job)
7. Soni Meduna 47.070 (good job)
8. Kristin Mcdermott 73.630
9. Sarah Cain 73.490
10. Amy Chow 73.410
11. Martha Grubbs 72.490
12. Rachel Rochelli 72.290
13. Samanatha Muhleman 72.280
14. Summer Reid 72.060
15. Jaycie Phelps 72.000
15. Tanya Maiers 72.000
17. Hurttin' Hiedi Hornbeek 71.980
18. Mohini Bhardwaj 71.970
19. Karin Lichey 71.820
20. Maryann Esposito 71.720
21. Sarah Balogach 71.630
22. Katie Fitzpatrick 71.540
23. Jenni Beathardb 71.280
24. Kara Fry 70.840
25. Ashley Kever 70.720

Due to broken copy machines, they were no giving out copies of the final
results, so this is as far on the AA as I copied
Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 04:33:51 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Gymnastics Videos

Okay please forgive me if this is a repeat but I got a message that it was
not recieved at the "gymn@mit.edu" address so I'm resubmiting itx


I am desperately looking for gymnastics videos of ANY men's Europeans
(esp.'90 & '92), the '93 Tour (Miller, Scherbo, Boguinskyaia, Bruce - it was
called "The Montgomery Wards" something or other) which I heard was on TNT
with no previous advertising, HOME VIDEO of the World Open in '93 and/or the
Reeses World Pro Cup in '94. If anyone can help me with these things or any
other interesting stuff, I'd be more than happy to trade (I have over 300
meets on tape from '76 on) or pay you for them, please e-mail me at
stobchatay@aol.com. Thanks alot in advance!

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 16:57:21 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Machelle Campi

I do not know why she did not compete, she was not even listed on the
sheet to attend the meet. I asked but only heard that she had not
quallifyed at a meet. Does this sound right? I do not follow how they get
their, just how they do when they are their and after.
Sorry I couldn't help more

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 11:14:33 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@indiana.edu
Subject: meet behavior

I have heard from other moms that skating is notoriously competitive,
(not that gymnastics isn't.) However, I've never seen a case of
serious bad maners in kids' gymnastics award ceremonies. I think by the time
your kid has gotten to the optional level, you can see that there is
often not that much difference talent-wise between first and fifth place.
A step out of bounds, a fall on beam, or even having your best event in
an early rotation can mean the difference between placing first or fifth.
I think the kids learn this fairly early on. The kids were all
wandering around congratulating each other and "talking shop" after the
awards and while waiting for them. The kids all cheer for each other
even when they're from different gyms. I think they have a lot of
respect for each other. Once in a while you find a kid that has a
problem and even then it's often the fault of an over competitive parent.
We had the level 8-9-10 State meet this last weekend. (Indiana)
As a contrast to Pennsylvania, there were only 2 level 10 girls in the
9-11 age group and 6 in the age 13-14 group.
There were only 9 level 9's in the 8-11 age group,
however there were 48 level 8's in the 8-11 age group.
I wish that Jessamyn (my daughter) had gone ahead and done level 9
because of the small numbers of competitors.
she will next season. She placed 2nd in the State on beam, 4th on bars,
6th on floor and 3rd in the All-around at level 8 in the age 8-ll group.
with her performance even though she had hoped to win the all-around.
She's practicing hard for level 9 and so far she's got her
double-full floor, her front giants on bars, she's
working on double flyaway on bars, and double back on floor. She can do a
flip flop, layout, layout on beam (not with any regularity, though it
did get her a trip to Ben and Jerry's for Ice Cream. ( Fourth graders will
cheerfully jump off a roof if it means a trip to the Ice cream parlor.)
So, I think she will do great at level 9 next year.

I was very surprised at the small number of level 10's in Indiana.
There were only 29 including all the age groups! Considering that the
U.S.A. Gymnastics office is in Indianapolis, I would have thought that
there would be more kids at a high level.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 01:23:41 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Partial Results

Sorry to all that this is only a partial results I just recived them and
it is after midnight and I still have an hour drive home.

Vault BB
1. Dawes 1. Dawes
2. Sara Cain 2. Fontaine
3. Larrissa Fontaine 3. Beathard

UB FX
1. Dawes 1. Borden
2. Borden 2. Thompson
3. Beathard 3. Dawes

World rep
Dawes
Borden
Fontaine
Miller (by eairler)

I will post more later as I am having problems typing now. If you also
want junior results let me know

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Mar 94 23:27:13 EST
From: ***@aluxpo.att.com
Subject: Peachtree Classic

Re: L10 rules with elites

Many club invitationals and classics have Open Optional Division - where
L9, L10 and elites all compete in the open optional division using L10 rules.

Toby

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 17:15:42 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Peachtree Classic

> > -Why does ESPN always bundle a gymnastics program with a cheerleading
> > program? Also, one would think that Todd Zeile makes enough money that
> > Julianne McNamara doesn't have to be reduced to commentating on high school
> > cheerleading...
> Because the audiences are mostly the same people. I for one like both
> sports. Cheerleading got me intersted in gymnastics. (I'm a cheerleader
> not a gymnast)
>
>
> Re my comment on Julianne. It's not that I dislike cheerleading (I don't),
> but could you imagine Carl Lewis doing commentary for a high school wresting
> competition?
>
> Mara
I don't have ESPN, but my point was that both sports have things in common
andsince thay are already paying her for the gymnastics coverage, they add in
cheerleading to keep her schedule full. Since most cheerleader comps happen
durring Dec and Jan, they don't affect her covering gymnastics as this is
about the only off season in gymnastics.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 94 10:21:43 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Protests

Ok, figure skating prompted this question, but gymnastics has seen similar
incidents, so I think it's appropriate to bring it up here:

At skating Worlds this weekend, Surya Bonaly at first refused to get up on
the podium to receive her silver medal, and then she did get on but took the
medal off. Then she skipped the press conference. What do people think
about athletes protesting results in this and other ways?

-- Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 10:54:10 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Protests

I think that protesting the matter of results in a compition like that is
totaly childish. The sport is all based on humman judument so not
everyone is going to agree. I they want a sport that is less effefted by
human judgment, they should have tried hockey. Also, that goes aginst the
spirt of the compition and stated in the olympic Creed (see below).
That is all I will say as I did not see the event as I was at the
World trials.

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 0:36:46 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM
Subject: Protests

As Jaye said, acting up at the medal ceremony because you don't
like the results is childish. It's also rude to the other
athletes, and to the spectators, especially if, as in Bonaly's
case, the winner happens to be from the host country (and one
with a traditional emphasis on good manners!). Better
to limit your displeasure to making faces on the podium a la
Kerrigan at the Olympics or refusing to shake hands with
the winner, like Boguinskaia at 1991 Worlds.

It wasn't at all clear to me whether Bonaly was trying to make
a statement, or just having a "temper tantrum," as the
wire services reported it. But in a judged sport like
gymnastics or skating, that sort of behavior can be
suicidal. (The competition was close, but I thought
the marks and the final result were fair; Yuka Sato
wouldn't be the first athlete to be inspired to new
heights by performing before the home crowd.)

Does this sort of behavior happen with younger competitors
(under 12) at gymnastics competitions? Little kids often don't
have as much practice/skill at hiding their feelings or
overlooking what they perceive as unfair.

With behavior like this, and the increasing violence in baseball
in recent years, I sometimes wonder if this is part of the
general deterioration in civility people have been lamenting
in the world the past decade or so.

>>Kathy
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 09:34:26 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Protests

I did actually watch this live, the feeling among the commentators
was that she had been told by her advisors to do this as some
form of protest because she felt she should have won and that
Yuka Sato only won because she was Japanese. Now even to me
who is a complete layman when it comes to identifying how
well a skater performs (well I thought Torvill & Dean had won :)
thought that Bonaly hadn't skated as well as the Sato.
I don't know what it was but Sato just skated and performed
better.

Now to be honest it was a stupid thing for her to do, after all
she did eventually get on the podium but that was after the
man giving the medals out had talked to her for a few minutes
but she hasnt achieved anything, she has just make herself look a
spoilt brat in front of the entire world. In fact she looked
incredibly embarrased by doing it.

I would understand behaviour
like that from a 12 year old kid, they dont always think about
the consequences of what they are doing but she is semi-professional
athlete and as such her actions in any sport are unforgivable. I'm
sure we can all relate to the fact she has probably spent alot of
time preparing for the event and its obviously a let down
if you dont achieve what you set out to do, but if on the
day the other competitors were better then how can you possibly
complain about the decision.

Clive

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 09:14:18 EST
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Protests

Kathy:
>Better
to limit your displeasure to making faces on the podium a la
>Kerrigan at the Olympics or refusing to shake hands with
the winner, like Boguinskaia at 1991 Worlds.

I think refusing to shake hands with, or being rude in any way to, the winner
is the most reprehensible action because the results are completely out of
the winner's control. She can't help what the judges did. (In Boginskaya's
case, though, there was also the issue of Kim having skipped her earlier by
mistake [she says]. I also found that someone really screwed up in not
giving the American gymnasts a little instruction on medal-ceremony protocol,
like the way they took their silver medal without going around to
congratulate the gold medalists first).

Clive:
>but if on the
day the other competitors were better then how can you possibly
>complain about the decision.

I think the problem here was that Bonaly didn't think the other competitor
was better.

As to younger gymnasts, I've heard them (and their parents) complain, but
I've never seen one pull a stunt like the ones mentioned.

What about not competing as a form of protest, like T&D and Usova & Zhulin?
Certainly anyone has the prerogative not to compete, but what about doing so
for this particular reason and being public about the reason?

For a breath of fresh air, do people remember Scherbo during the pommel horse
ceremony at Barcelona? For those who didn't see it, he tied for first with
the North Korean (I *still* can't remember his name -- someone help me out
here) who everyone but the judges thought was better, and when time came to
receive their gold medals, Scherbo prodded him up on the podium first, then
came around to the front, shook his hand, and then got up with him, making
the statement that he (Scherbo) didn't really deserve to be there with him.
I thought that was pretty cool of him. And there was Andreas Aguilar's
semi-admission that Wecker got reamed on rings at Stuttgart.

-- Gimnasta

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 16:08:20 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: Protests

>I think the problem here was that Bonaly didn't think
>the other competitor was better.

Well Bonaly must have thought she should have won but
she is alone in her opinion.

I mean look how T&D reacted when the lost the Olympic
Gold and ended up with Bronze. The first thing they
did was congratulate the winners and I havent seen
them,they might have done and I missed it but I
haven't seem them, in any interview since the
olympics actually complain about the decision
they have implied and suggested that they felt
that 'the audience were our judges' implying they didn't
think much of the judges marks but they havent come out
and bluntly and unnecessarily made a point about
what they felt about the judges.

>What about not competing as a form of protest,
>like T&D and Usova & Zhulin? Certainly anyone has
>the prerogative not to compete, but what about doing so
>for this particular reason and being public about the reason?

Your right not competing is a form of protest and everyone
knows why they aren't competing but if your going to protest
then its a darn sight more respectable and certainly
less offensive to make a protest this way than
it is to do it Bonalys way.

Putting it bluntly Bonaly uneccesarily offended
alot of people by making a stand which really hasn't achieved
anything she has not endeared herself to the
public opinion. I doubt whether anyone felt offended
when T&D announced they weren't competing.

Clive

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 11:44:48 EST
From: ***@BBN.COM>
Subject: Protests

Me:
>>Better to limit your displeasure to making faces on the podium a la
>>Kerrigan at the Olympics or refusing to shake hands with
>>the winner, like Boguinskaia at 1991 Worlds.

Gimnasta:
>I think refusing to shake hands with, or being rude in any way to, the winner
>is the most reprehensible action because the results are completely out of
>the winner's control. She can't help what the judges did. (In Boginskaya's

You're right, of course, and I should have been more clear about what
I meant to say (the perils of posting at midnight). What I meant
was that if you absolutely can't restrain yourself, it's better
to do something less egregious--a lesser evil.

On a similar note, because he usually is so well-mannered and
good-humored, I was surprised at Scherbo's carping about
his and Piskun's tie-breaker loss at the mixed doubles
competition recently. Being peeved in an interview with a
reporter is nothing compared to making a "statement" at the
podium, but it was a surprise to hear it from Scherbo. Was
he really unaware of the rules? (I can believe that he might
now speak English well enough for someone to tell him in
English and have both Scherbo and the explainer mistakenly
think he'd understood.)

Is training in how to take the podium part of training in
general for how to behave at a competition? And is this part
of standard training for high-level gymnasts?

>>Kathy
------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 10:59:11 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: Results (hot off the press)

Hey Mara,
You were right. All three of our World Reps came from the list you
posted. I have posted some of the results form Saturday's copm, and hope
to finishing tham all by later today.

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 17:50:59 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu>
Subject: Results (junior)

Here are the junior results. It is arranged for AA but the other events
are listed.
Rank Name Valut UB Beam FX Final
1. Donielle Thompson 18.575 18.775 18.175 18.725 74.010
2. Katie Teft 18.325 18.300 18.475 19.000 74.010
3. Kristy Powell 18.750 18.675 17.755 18.150 73.060
4. Dominique Moceanu 18.450 17.975 18.500 17.825 72.780
5. Mina Kim (Dymno) 18.050 17.950 18.800 17.775 72.110
6. Marissa Medal 18.050 18.300 18.250 17.300 71.650
7. Mary Beth Arnold 18.600 17.425 17.725 18.125 71.540
8. Kristen Maloney 18.100 17.525 18.275 18.225 71.530
9. Regen Tomasek 18.500 16.950 17.450 18.250 70.710
10. Monica Flamer 17.755 18.500 17.500 16.425 70.180
11. Andrea Pickens 18.375 17.875 16.750 17.525 70.100
12. Kristen Jensen 18.400 17.950 16.050 17.452 69.450
13. Deidra Graham 17.625 16.625 17.625 17.475 69.350
14. Lindsay Baker 17.900 16.175 17.700 18.000 69.290
15. Alecia Ingram 17.650 16.850 17.500 17.525 69.030
16. Kristen Stucky 17.975 16.350 17.275 17.800 68.720
17. Lisa Geckle 17.925 17.225 16.675 17.025 68.720
18. Taryn Apgood 17.250 17.050 17.375 17.725 68.680
18. Breanne Rutherford 17.650 16.900 17.275 17.350 68.680
20. Nicole Bongiovanni 17.650 16.900 17.275 17.350 68.680
21. Amanda Schuler 18.225 17.250 16.100 16.925 68.210
22. Nekia Demery 18.575 15.975 16.675 17.425 67.880
23. Jennifer Carow 17.750 17.100 17.425 16.300 67.870
24. Becky Meldrum 17.750 17.025 15.950 17.540 67.700
25. Kathy Herbert 17.450 14.000 16.800 16.350 63.830
26. Katie Dyson 17.300 14.675 17.650 8.150 58.770
27. Alexis Brion 9.200 8.025 15.650 17.575 46.690

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 16:02:35 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu>
Subject: Resutls (Senior indivaual events)

Sorry I only have the top three on each. The copy machine broke, so they
did not make copies for us.

Vault
Dawes 19.475
Sarah Cain 19.275
Fontaine 19.125

UB
Dawes 19.525
Fontaine 19.275
Jenni Beathard 18.900

BB
Dawes 19.575
Borden 19.325
Thompson 19.275 (go Jennie)

FX
Borden 19.175
Thompson 19.125 (get 'm girl)
Dawes 19.125

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Mar 94 23:23:31 EST
From: ***@aluxpo.att.com
Subject: The popularity of gymnastics

Just for a little perspective...the kids who are at Classics are pretty
much most of the elite gymnast in the country. That doesn't seem like very many.
40 seniors, 18 juniors.

I think that Pennsylvania has the largest number of kids in USA-G programs.
At L10 States - the closest level to elite - there were 23 kids in the 9-14
age group and 54 kids in the 15+ age group. Those kids needed a 32 to qualify
to States. Those that scored 34 today get to go to Regionals...and the top 14
from each Region (from each age group) qualify to Nationals. That's not a whole
lot of kids in comparison to the number of all kids who are doing gymnastics.

Toby

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 21:28:12 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: The popularity of gymnastics

Chops says:

The closest you can get a piece of the truth it to attend all sorts of
little meets, or men's collegiate meets...

That's pretty much what I've based my conclusion on. On the men's side,
most of the U.S. talent pool comes from college. There really aren't that
many elite level gymnasts out there. But even your "average" gymnast has
skill that boggles the imagination since, to most people, gymanstics is
something akin to quantum mechanics. I'm all for promoting the sport as
much as possible. But one deterrent for people really getting into it is
that it's so bizarre. Almost anyone can imagine being able to slam dunk
or hit a home run, although I'm sure they must realize that it's harder
than it looks. But a laid out double double dismount? Very few people
can even conceive what it's like to be upside down! Maybe, at least in
the U.S., if people were more athletically inclined, there would be more
hard core fans.

With that in mind, yes I cringe whenever I have to put up with John Tesh
telling us (during her beam routine!) how Dominique Dawes is attached to
her younger brother. But I guess they have to market it for mass
appeal.

-George

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 01:18:41 -0500 (EST)
From: ***@db.erau.edu
Subject: The popularity of gymnastics

Jsut a quick correcton on George's post.
There were 27 juniors to compete and only 39 seniors.

Jimmy
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 14:24:34 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: The popularity of gymnastics

George said:
>I agree with the sentiment that it would be nice to have
>more coverage.But this isn't a surprising sentiment seeing
>what electronic alias we are all on!

Ok I agree it is harldy surprising viewpoint but even so
there isnt enough coverage. What I get to watch in England
is vastly different in terms of airtime etc etc to what
appears to be the norm in America.

I don't know the exact figures but I would have guessed
that the BBC coverage didnt add up to more than maybe
10 hours last year and that includes their
extensive coverage of last years World Championships.

Compare that to live coverage of most major meets
in the US in prime time viewing slots. In other
words not at 11pm in the evening on a minority
viewing channel.

The good thing is that it does appear to be getting better
the BBC are going to cover this years World Championships
but as to when and how long it will last I don't know.

Now I can't remember them EVER covering a World Championship
before. Last year was different because it would have looked
kind of weird if they hadn't covered it. But the only
other times they ever showed a meet was at the Olympics.

This would be understandable if the sport had a minority
viewing (which it doesnt) one of the reasons I think
for the BBC extending the coverage is because they were
surprised at the amount of interest it created.

Ok so its not as popular as it is in America but that seems
to be the general trend in most sports anyway except
in football (soccer).

Its not all doom and gloom though, Eurosport go along way
to making up the deficit. They manage to cover all the major
European and World events in whole and its generally LIVE.

Which reminds me, Eurosport are also covering this years
world championships, of course it's live as per normal
so its on ridicously early in the morning, I think each
broadcast will last for about 3 hours.

I only have the starting times at the moment and not the
finishing times and what with the clocks being put forward
the times could be wrong.

The coverage might even be longer than 3hrs they were doing 4 hour
long broadcasts from Japan last week so anything is
possible.

>Could you imagine being able to jump down on the field
>after a 49ers game andchatting with Joe Montana?
>(Okay, maybe my analogies are a little out of date.)

Well in England you used to be able to do it but then
they made it illegal so there is no chance of doing
it now.

>You can even get a press pass for an international
>meet by just regularlycontributing to a newgroup
>that has a sincere interest in the sport! ;^)

That still impresses the hell out of me that you
can get an actual official press pass and that they
treat you like an official person from the press. WOW!!!!.

Clive.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 21:42:11 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: Tkatchev front

Thanks, Gimnasta, for the description. Yes, it makes perfect sense. Now
I understand what the fellow next to me (former gymnast) was saying as the
gymnast did the trick: "Early Tkatchev tap, good...good". Looks to be a
hard trick to come out of gracefully. I can imagine ending it up in a
dead hang. No wonder not that many people do it.

-George

------------------------------

End of gymn Digest
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