Tue, 24 May 94 Volume 2 :
A Few Thigs About The Tri Meet Thingee (2 msgs)
Hilton Challenge - Girls
Hilton Challenge - Men
Interviews - John Roethlisberger (2 msgs)
Men's results from Hilton
New member.. (2 msgs)
Olympic Creed (3 msgs)
Re-preview of the Hilton Challenge
Trivia Questions Needed - #15
Women's Europeans Video
This is a digest of the email@example.com mailing list.
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 00:35:39 EDT
Subject: A Few Thigs About The Tri Meet Thingee
Hi all back from Pheonix where I meet up with Rachelle (lose anything?),
George (killer sense of direction), and Laura (non Gymner pal)...A quick
query...does anyone else think that this forum's name is pronounced "Gymin"
instead of "Gym?"...I mean there *is* a "n" on the end of it you
know...anyhow George and Rachelle laughed at me which I think was very mean
and totally unnecessary and I could sue you for emotional distress you know
Well the Gymn/"IG" gang WAS press row...so convienent when the entire media
stays in one hotel room ;-). I am totally zoned right now so I will work on a
suitably "Susan" post for later (I tried to write one now but I feel about as
emotional and alert as Gogean/Shannon).
One comment I must make now is this: John's HB sucks. It's cheap code
pleasing crap. His release (note the singular form) is a Jagear that would
embarrass Onodi with it's lack of amplitude. His 1 1/2 (it was just a 1/2
before) over the top dismount is different but way too simple (a la Betty
Okino) for this level. It's sad that wrong grips and Endo/Stalders can pass
for a HB set nowdays. It's so unfair to people like Ivankov who does the
highest cleanest Kovacs I've ever seen (he KICKS out for christsakes).
Highlights: Bart's Planche over Nadia's prone body (Ohmygawd Dudnik I almost
exploded holding all that laughter in); Trent's announcement that he's
making a "comeback" (the 'ploding thing again); Ivankov's Kovacs; Mr. Keswick
going 6 for 6 - this is about the 30th meet I've seen Scott in and this is
the first time that's even come close to happening; Rutnitsky's Y scale
(ultra flexible); The Chinese girl's beam, bars, and FX (they finally got
some good music - with the exception of Linlin); Piskun's vault (double
Yurchenko with good form...no really) Ivankov's little tushie (him *so*
cute...and *SO* young) and his stuning "divers" double pike; Tsaravich's
double front off beam; the Tkatchev into Xiao Rizhiu and the wrong way
Tkatchev in the same set from Yuquing (or was it Kexia?); Teft's BB Popa & FX
jump double with a little kick on the end (she can't do ANYTHING else
though); the Chinese boy's PB (stunning) and PH (they fell a lot but they
looked good doing it damnit!); Piskun's fish jump to Rulfova and her not
showing up for the press conferance since she'd been so royally screwed over;
an American with toe point and line <gasp> (long live Mihai - my hero!!!);
anything Ivankov's coach said ("I drink Russian vodka to Ivan...but only a
little")...oh yeah and the very best thing was [drumroll please]...seeing my
all time fav Lance up close and personal ;-)
Well Later All,
PS-It's a dry heat
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:02:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: A Few Thigs About The Tri Meet Thingee
| Hi all back from Pheonix where I meet up with Rachelle (lose anything?),
| One comment I must make now is this: John's HB sucks. It's cheap code
| pleasing crap. His release (note the singular form) is a Jagear that would
| embarrass Onodi with it's lack of amplitude. His 1 1/2 (it was just a 1/2
Well, unlike others, I enjoy gymnastics on a more fundamental level,
and I had fun watching Roeth's high bar. It was definitely different,
and I like different. I did not notice that his Jaeger was
particularly low, although I did think the form could be improved.
But that didn't ruin my enjoyment of the routine. I've seen many
excellent shots of Roeth. in _IG_ at the height of his Jaeger, so
obviously he can hit it if he wants to.
| Highlights: Bart's Planche over Nadia's prone body (Ohmygawd Dudnik I almost
Since this is probably confusing to those who weren't there, I thought
I'd elaborate. Nadia and Bart did another exhibition (a-gain) at the
end of the men's night. It ended with Nadia laying down on the floor
(back to the floor) perfectly still as Bart did a most-horizontal
straddle planche over her (one arm planted on each side of her body).
Needless to say, everyone on press row and people such as Waller,
Ringnald, etc were quite... amused. Too bad Nancy R. ran out of
film... would have made a lovely _IG_ spread. Maybe they'll show it
on TV. ;)
| going 6 for 6 - this is about the 30th meet I've seen Scott in and this is
Guess I've picked the wrong meets to go to... while he does mess up at
innopportune times, he's certainly not *that* bad. Worlds '91 (10th
AA) and Trials '92 (he won) come to mind. Those are the only two
meets that I've seen him compete in, aside from this year's and last
year's Hilton Challenges. Gotta love his Kovacs.
| (ultra flexible); The Chinese girl's beam, bars, and FX (they finally got
| some good music - with the exception of Linlin); Piskun's vault (double
The music gets *real* old *real* fast. By about the third or fourth
time that you heard it in warm-ups, you were about to scream -- or at
least I was. Btw, the Chinese girls of the competition looked nothing
like the girls in practice. They were hitting unremarkable leaps on
floor and crashing every other tumbling pass and release move in
practice (they did do well on beam during training, however). For
instance, the girl who caught the Xiao Ruzhi (I too forget who it was)
caught it only once that I saw in in practice. She did do it very
well in the meet, though ... pretty good height and continuity,
| Teft's BB Popa & FX
| jump double with a little kick on the end (she can't do ANYTHING else
I have to disagree. I thought her full-in on floor was really high,
and that her double layout off bars was tight. I only saw her miss
her beam mount once (layout on, ff layout) which unfortunately was
during competition. Also, considering that she can do full-ins off
beam and bars, she's certainly capable of something. (She took out
the twists in the competition, but she can do it well, I know, because
I saw her hit at least five of each: tucked full-in off beam and
laid-out full-in off bars.)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 08:30:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Copyrighted articles
| As I am under the understanding that mailing lists are considered the same as
| private e-mail for copyright purposes, here is a Hilton story from the AP.
Quoting directly from the Gymn Guide:
-> *DO NOT* post copyrighted articles on Gymn. This includes retyping
something you saw in the newspaper, forwarding articles from a
newswire, etc. You may, however, quote small parts of the article and
post a short summary of the story to Gymn (with proper reference)
according to the "fair use" clause of copyright law.
- - - - - -
I am not trying to pick on Mara, as she is not the only one who has
sent in an AP story lately. It is *essential* that we do not forward
newswire stories to Gymn, most particularly AP stories because the AP
is the strictest of them all on copyrights. Please note that whenever
I do send something to Gymn that I read on the AP wire, I do not send
the actual story, but rather extract only the important parts and
rephrase it. Sending something in this manner is appropriate, as long
as you note the source. (like writing a paper...)
And more generally-- you know, several Gymners worked pretty hard on
the Gymn Guide, which is sent to you when you join Gymn. From several
people's posts, it is obvious that they did not read it. I hope that
myself and others did not waste our time in writing it. It is
certainly somewhat long but we felt everything was important enough
that it couldn't be cut out. If you've lost your copy and would like
another, email George (firstname.lastname@example.org) and he will
send it to you (sorry George, would do it myself, but it's a bit rough
to keep up when I'm traveling).
Also, back to the Challenge again... it is especially innappropriate
to forward an AP article since Gymn received a press credential to
report on the meet!
Hmm, maybe I haven't been on vacation for long enough... ;)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 02:18:25 +0800
Subject: Hilton Challenge - Girls
Sorry if this report isn't the most timely thing in the world. Have to
pay the bills when I take a break from my gymnastics jet setting travels.
Sunday afternoon the shift was on. Gone were the men's apparati and
in their place were those of the girls. The mood is so different
between the girls and the boys: The crowd, the atmosphere. The girls
crowd is usually a bit larger, this time marginally so (5,725 vs. 4,300).
Even if the crowds were equal in size, the mix would always be different.
There are all of these little girls running around (and I'm not just
talking about the gymnasts!) The use o floor music changes things quite
a bit, too. The techniques, even the *same* techniques, look so
different when done by the girls as opposed to the guys. They really
are two different sports.
At any rate, here are the results:
1 USA 115.137
2 BLR 114.374
3 CHN 114.074
1 Dominique Dawes (USA) 9.600 9.800 9.800 9.900 39.100
2 Elena Piskun (BLR) 9.837 9.750 9.700 9.725 39.012
3 Ye Linlin (CHN) 9.450 9.600 9.750 9.675 38.475
4 Amanda Borden (USA) 9.537 9.700 8.925 9.800 37.962
5 Katie Teft (USA) 9.400 9.700 9.100 9.625 37.825
6 Svetlana Tarasevich (BLR) 9.500 9.650 8.925 9.675 37.750
7 Guan Yuqing (CHN) 9.437 9.325 9.575 9.375 37.712
8 Kellee Davis (USA) 9.425 9.450 9.075 9.700 37.650
9 Yuan Kexia (CHN) 9.375 9.625 9.675 8.925 37.600
10 Alena Polozkova (BLR) 9.462 8.900 9.600 9.100 37.062
11 He Xuemei (CHN) 9.437 9.550 9.275 8.800 37.062
12 Julia Sobko (BLR) 9.300 9.275 9.025 9.175 36.775
I'll follow the format I established for the men and talk briefly
about each gymnast.
Dominique Dawes - She had a good meet, and I think her form has much
improved over the past year. She showed nice polish on her uneven
bars routine. I remember at last year's meet that her legs seemed
a bit on the sloppy side. I really like her free hip to change to
high bar. And the poise she has on beam makes the difference. Did
she deserve a 9.9 on floor? I wouldn't have given it to her, but then
again I wouldn't give out a 9.9 to anyone ever (unless they levitated
and suspended themselves over the judges table in a full lotus. I
really have a hard time following the women's code of points anyway-
That's probably because I don't have the greatest feel for the
inherent difficulties of the various skills. The things I think are
hardest (like anything on beam) they seem to do with ease, and the
things I think might be easy, like a reverse hecht, they often struggle
Amanda Borden - She didn't do anything *too* scary this meet (she
often comes so close to hurting herself) and in fact I thought she
looked pretty good. I think Amanda sometimes has lapses of
concentration. She fell off the beam on her punch front on beam.
When I asked her if she felt it was a difficult skill, she indicated
that it wasn't. She just messed up. Didn't really matter, though,
since even with .5 more she would have still been in 4th. Amanda is
in great athletic shape and she always seems the happiest of the lot,
so I don't think she has any complaints finishing 4th. I really liked
her cowboyed double front dismount on unevens. Can't say I'm too into
her new music, some rockabilly mix kind of reminiscent of Kim Zmeskal.
Oh well, it's only music.
Kellee Davis - She's a strong gymnast. You can see the power in her
casts on unevens. She had a great double layout mount on floor.
Weird music: Drums, rock & roll, cello, drums, rock & roll.
Katie Teft - Great uneven set. *Nice* laid out double dismount. When
she mounted I was thinking, "This girl is 12. She's going to do
something wimpy, then fall..." Katie shows a lot of poise. She
has a lot of personality on floor, although I'm not sure what she
was doing out there with all of the strange hand gestures. But she
did the first illusion I've seen in ages (outside of rhythmic) and
for that I give her a gold star, since I always liked this trick.
Elena Piskun - Hey, I actually spoke a little Russian to her! She
glanced at me like I had purple spots for a second, but then answered.
Cool, huh? (Not the most scintillating conversation: "Be healthy!
Thank you! Be healthy!" Only other things I could have said are,
"You are very beautiful. Please be my wife..." or "Today is
Saturday. I am very hungry." Elena is a very consistent, serious
gymnast. She broke form a few times on unevens (bent or separated
legs) but had a high degree of difficulty. Loved her laid out double,
but I always love a laid out double. She has a cool standing full on
beam and her double back (piked) she nailed. Her vault is a Yurchenko
double. She was a little low on both her mount and dismount on floor,
but she made it around, although it looked iffy for a spell there.
Svetlana Tarasevich - So tiny. I loved her double front dismount from
beam. Too bad she lost it on her layout pass (fell). Her Korbut was
nice and high (I cringe. This has *got* to hurt at least a little.
How do they do it?) The girl is so small, she uses the floor like
it were a trampoline. She had a nice lively routine. The quality of
her tape made it sound like an AM radio station, though. I don't
think the judges deduct for this, though.
Alena Polozkova - Nice Rulfova on beam, and I really liked her floor.
Not too sure about the score (9.1). Don't know what the starting
value was. Who cares? I like the staggered passes, even if they're
easier. By staggered pass I mean roundoff HS some *twist*, roundoff
HS another *twist*. It's nice pacing. Oh, she sat down her dismount,
thus the low score. She was short on her double layout on unevens.
Two falls will take you out of the running real quick!
Julia Sobko - She is so skinny it scared me. The media guide had
her at 5'1 1/2" and 66 lbs. Not that it matters, but you can't
help but notice. Her scores were all pretty consistent, so this
is probably where she is right now. Lost it on her punch front on
beam, just like Amanda Borden. I liked her 2 1/2 dismount, though.
Ye Linlin - Don't know how to say marry me in Chinese, although I
do know I love you. She is very elegant and I very much enjoyed
watching her gymnastics. Loved her beam routine. My favorite
trick of the night: 360 split leap. She split in the middle of
the twist, then closed again, giving it this delayed quality. She
also did a leap into an immediate punch front, which is kind of
daring. And her tumbling was a cut above the other Chinese girls
it seemed. Full difficulty. Nice full-in dismount on unevens.
Guan Yuqing - Stuck her double back (tucked) dismount on beam and
has the same floating layout of Yuan Kexia. Her floor was
interesting in that she did a good deal of twisting and she
used something other than weird rockabilly or rock & roll music
mix. She had an innovative uneven bar release they call (I think-
never saw it before) a Xiau (reverse hecht into a front over the
bar - looks cool!) Too bad she lost it on her full-in dismount,
because it was a nice routine up to that point.
Yuan Kexia - Beautful floating layouts on beam. She had that same
floating style on floor. It would probably be a good idea for her
to increase the tumbling difficulty of her floor, though. She
sat down her first Yurchenko with 1/2 but stuck the 2nd.
He Xuemei - Not her best meet. Anyone unfamiliar with her bar set?
She does an eagle grip giant immediately into a Yaeger. I sure
hope the Chinese prod the other countries into doing eagle grips.
The girls certainly have the flexibility. She needs to be a little
tighter I think on her bar form, but I still love her routine. Big
step on her full-in dismount. She also lost it on the standing full.
This must be harder than they're letting on, since three girls fell
on this. Nice ring leaps, though. She doesn't have great difficulty
on floor. She does just a couple front layouts. Can't imagine
those are all that difficult, and disconnected from other skills
it doesn't look like much of anything. I like her movement on
Wow, I have to get some sleep. I have a few interviews to submit
and a couple of more comments on the meet in general. I'll try to
get those out tomorrow. If you have any specific questions about
anything I didn't cover, feel free to drop me some email.
Yours in Gymnastics,
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 00:34:04 +0800
Subject: Hilton Challenge - Men
Woo hoo. I'll need at least a week of work to recover from the heat
fun and sun. Just got back from Phoenix and an exciting weekend of
gymnastics. Wish you all could have been there. I'll see what I can
do to make it seem like your were.
Attendance was ~4,300 for the men, a small yet knowledgeable crowd.
One day more people will pick up on how exciting men's
gymnastic's is. Until then we just have to be thankful that it's
around and accesible to those of us in the know ;^)
Attendance surely didn't put a damper on the form or content of
this meet. It's not like 4,300 is something to sneeze at. And
the press had the pleasure to experience the reactions of non-competing
gymnasts (notably Lance Ringnald and Chris Waller) who were sitting
right behind in the rowdy section. They made as much noise as 500 or
so normal people. (Few gymnasts by definition could be considered
The format of the Challenge is certainly conducive to gymnastics.
One gymnast performed at a time. Last year this made for quite
the marathon, with men and women combined. This year they wised
up and split them into separate days. For the men they used the
standard NCAA format of one team competing an event each
rotation. About the only thing that I would change would be the
use of background music, which is usually kind of fruity by its
very nature. But this is pretty much standard fare when gymnasts
compete one at a time. And it's certainly not nearly as
obnoxious as the music they play at your typical baseball game.
In short, I lived with it.
Saw the Belarus and U.S. girls' teams in the audience. The
Belarus team was easy to pinpoint by the helium-pitched, staccato
"stoi" chant when the Belarus men did their dismounts. And the
U.S. girls are easy to spot because, well, they're famous.
Didn't see the Chinese girls' team around, but they could have
been lurking in some corner somewhere.
At any rate, let's talk about the meet:
1 USA 168.00
2 CHN 166.30
3 BLR 163.80
The Belarus team was at a disadvantage with only three people in
the rotation. They had to count every score. If Scherbo had
competed, it's hard to say what the results would have been.
People get injured, though. At any rate here are the individual
FX PH R V PB HB AA
1 Ivan Ivankov (BLR) 9.550 9.450 9.550 9.150 9.650 9.300 56.650
2 Scott Keswick (USA) 9.300 8.950 9.600 9.550 9.500 9.600 56.500
3 Cheng Liang (CHN) 9.300 9.200 9.150 9.400 9.400 9.450 55.900
4 Roethlisberger (USA) 9.000 9.300 9.450 9.300 9.150 9.500 55.700
5 Fan Bin (CHN) 8.900 9.300 9.050 9.300 9.550 9.200 55.300
6 Mihai Bagiu (USA) 9.100 9.400 9.000 9.300 9.050 9.400 55.250
7 Wang Dong (CHN) 9.200 9.300 9.050 9.200 8.700 9.000 54.450
8 V. Rudnitsky (BLR) 8.800 8.750 9.000 9.200 9.150 9.000 53.900
9 Dong Zhong (CHN) 8.550 8.750 8.950 9.000 9.150 9.200 53.600
10 A. Belanovsky (BLR) 8.300 8.650 9.350 8.750 9.050 9.150 53.250
11 C. Umphrey (USA) 9.350 8.800 0.000 9.200 0.000 9.600 36.950
The American men did alright for themselves. Although some might
argue that a U.S. team might have an inherent advantage at a U.S.
meet, I'm out of the business of trying to second guess judges and
must assume that final results are a close approximation to reality.
The U.S. team certainly looked consistent. Scott Keswick in
particular went 6 for 6, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
Since there were only 11 gymnasts at the meet, and since each
gymnast is a highlight in his own right, I'll focus on each one
Mihai Bagiu - Never seen this fellow before, so my impressions
are fresh and new. Mihai is a very graceful gymnast. I thought
his highbar and pommel sets were especially elegant (highbar:
Kovaks, triple dismount, stuck). His weakest event IMHO, is
rings. Seeing how big this guy is (5'10", 160 lbs.) I can see
rings being kind of difficult. But as much as long arms might be
a detriment on rings, they can be an asset on horse. His lines
are nice and extended on this event. He's got that slow,
Chainey Umphrey - Chainey sustained a shoulder injury during
Worlds and had to opt out of Rings and PBars. I thought he was
going to opt out of Highbar, too, but he competed (his last
event) and rocked his set. Nice clean form for his release moves
and a solid landing earned him a strong score. I think Chainey's
weakest event may be Pommels, where tonight he looked to be
John Roethlisberger - This fellow has to shorten his name. I
caught John struggling a bit from time to time. bit coming in 4th
he wasn't struggling *too* hard. His workout at the beginning of
the meet made me tired just watching. The guy seems to be a
perfectionist and beats himself up over every mistake. Still, he
had what I thought to be the nicest Highbar set of the night
(interview). I thought it was very innovative and original.
Best moment of the night: John was struggling a bit on PBars.
One of the Belarus coaches was helping him through it, you could
tell by his body english (or would that be body russian?) The
coach yelled out an automatic "Stoi!" on his dismount, then
offered him a round of applause. Gymnatics is only marginally a
Scott Keswick - Scotty was on today. He didn't fall on his
highbar set or do anything that spelled disaster. Instead he was
fluid and consistent. He's an especially smooth gymnast when
he's on. His double front to planch on PBars was especially
smooth and innovative. Most guys do a double back. His was a
very nice series of connected moves. His Highbar was about the
best I've seen him do. He can really float that Kovaks.
Fan Bin - An incredibly nice PBars set. I remember his doubles
between bars as showing great amplitude. His circles on PBars
were steady, smooth and slow. Only a slight bobble on dismount.
Very nice double between rings.
Cheng Liang - I really liked this guy's pommels. His flairs had
a particular rhythm that made them especially smooth and fluid.
He does a Kasamatsu style vault that I think is a nice departure
from the Yurchenko style. His flairs on floor were
well-extended. Double tucked dismount maybe not the hardest
thing to do, but high and floating.
Wang Dong - Slid on his 1 1/4 (at least I think it was supposed
to be a 1 1/4) mount, but he stuck his laid out doulbe dismount
cold. Had some trouble on Rings, but pulled it out without
getting too out of control. Once you start to swing on rings, it
seems like you get in a positive feedback loops and the set
starts oscillating. It just amazes me that anyone can *ever*
make rings looks smooth.
Dong Zhong - Very nice doubles and Diamadov on PBars. Had a very
clean Highbar set (floating Kovaks), except for a point where he
had to muscle out of a wrong-way endo.
Ivan Ivankov - This guy is super. So consistently excellent. I
think Scherbo would have had a hard time beating this kid even if
he were healthy. Ivan does a Yurchenko double, but was short.
On Pommels he does these great spindled flairs, not the least bit
laboring. Like he's reading a book up there. He broke form a tad
on his Kovaks on Highbar, but nothing major. I think his dismount
was a double double, laid out, but I forgot to ask to make sure.
Vitaly Rudnitsky - Vitaly did a very clean Yurchenko full Vault
that had a great block. He struggled a bit on the other events,
although, given the consistency of his scores, maybe this is
where he is right now.
Alexander Belanovsky - Something special on PBars: Flairs. It's
cool when someone breaks out the flairs when you're not expecting
it. His spindled circles on Pommels were also pretty neat,
although he must have missed somewhere to score an 8.65. Even
going one at a time, if you blink at a meet you're going to miss
Speaking of blinking I've *got* to get some sleep before my eyes
fall out of their sockets. I'll try to get out the interviews
tomorrow. And then there are the girls...
Yours in Gymnastics,
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 11:24:04 +0800
Subject: Interviews - John Roethlisberger
I cornered John during the press conference to talk about his highbar
routine, which I thougt was pretty cool. Most highbar routines seem
to progress in a similar fashion and use similar skills: reverse hecht,
Gienger, jam dislocate to eagle, hop out of that then crank up for the
dismount which is usually one of three: a triple, a laid out double, or
a double double. Now all of those skills are great and highbar is my
favorite event to watch. But it's nice every now and then to see a
routine that makes you go "Wow, that was different". John's skills may
not be harder than he ones I just described, but gymanstics isn't just
about doing the hard tricks. Especially high bar: There's tremendous
room for creativity there. Here's a good example of a guy working with
the code to come up with an original set.
Gymn: Your highbar routine is different from the last time I saw it.
JR: Yeah, I added a new dismount.
Gymn: It's something over the bar.
JR: Yeah, double front with a 1 1/12 twist over the bar.
Gymn: Yeah, that was really nice.
JR: Dismounts have been a big problem for me so I had to be creative
and find something that I could do and that turned out to be it.
Gymn: You stuck it cold, too. I take it that you were happy with that.
JR: Yeah! It was ... I had an average meet but I was overall pretty
happy I guess, happy with the team.
Gymn: Could you describe ... go through your skills on highbar.
JR: I mount wrong-way Endo with a 1/2 pirouette, then I do another
wrong-way Endo full pirouette to eagle grip...
Gymn: Lots of wrong-way grips.
JR: Yeah. Then I do a forward one-armed giant with a full turn to a
one-armed Yaeger. Then I do another wrong-way Endo to a wrong-way
Endo pirouette, then I do a blind change then I do my dismount,
double front with a 1 1/2 twist.
Gymn: A lot of different skills in there than the ones that you usually see.
JR: (Laughs) Yeah. Actually highbar has been kind of a problem for me
lately, so I've been having to be creative and work with the code
to find some skills that I could use.
Gymn: Now are you still eligible? You were a senior last year...
JR: Yeah, this is my fifth year. I'm done with college gymnastics.
Gymn: Okay, so what's on the agenda for the future?
JR: Um, I'm just going to keep training, I graduate in a coupole
of weeks and I'm going to keep training until the '96 games,
hopefully, if things work out.
Gymn: I see. Once you graduate are you going to still work out
same place you are now, with your coacch, or...
JR: Yeah, I'll still be at the University of Minnesota training.
Gymn: Okay, John, thanks a lot.
JR: Sure, no problem.
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 23:08:21 EDT
Subject: Interviews - John Roethlisberger
Just to mention it, there is another gymnast at Minnesota who does AA but
really specializes in HB who has a very similar routine and style to John
Roethlisberger (and also seems similar to John in temperment and
concentration level <g>). His name is Brian Ottenhoff, and you might see him
at Nationals next year. (Not to be confused with Minnesota's Brian Yee, who
was 13th at Winter Nationals this year).
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 01:35:19 EDT
Subject: Men's results from Hilton
Just a quick note:
Team: 1 USA, 2 CHN, 3 BLR
AA: 1 Ivankov, 2 Keswick, 3 Cheng Ling
With much love,
Rachele, George, Susan, Nancy (and John Crumlish, non-Gymner, but still a
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 21:20:00 UTC
Subject: Nadia (long)
Since Karolyi's book doesn't go into much detail about Nadia's early
gymnastics results, I thought I'd post some stuff from a couple of Romanian
- Romanian Children's Champs.
Onesti won the team title (176.35), with Oradea 2nd (176.25). This was
Comaneci's first competition (she was 8 1/2 years); she fell from B 3 times
in the team competition to score a 6.20 and finished 13th AA (34.65).
- Romanian Natl. Team Champs.
1. Onesti 181.40
2. Sibiu 174.40
1. Teodora Ungureanu 37.45
2. Mariana Cojanu 37.35
4. Nadia Comaneci 36.95
7. Viorica Dumitru* 36.20
(all from Onesti team)
Karolyi from his classroom selection.
Comaneci's scores were:
V 9.35 (3rd), UB 9.60 (1st), B 8.50 (20th), FX 9.50 (1st)
- Onesti vs. Partizan Ljubljana
1. Nadia Comaneci 38.50
Comaneci scored 9.70 on B.
- Cup of the Romanian Gymnastics Federation
1. Nadia Comaneci 37.50 (9.10, 9.40, 9.60, 9.40)
2. Mariana Cojanu 36.30
Nadia also won all 4 event finals.
- Zone Meet
Onesti took the team title (174.50), and Comaneci took 2nd AA (35.60).
- ROM vs. BUL (Juniors)
1. ROM 185.00
2. BUL 183.80
Comaneci placed 2nd AA (37.60) and won the UB (9.6) and FX (9.7).
- ROM vs. GDR (Juniors)
1. GDR 182.10
2. ROM 179.10
1. Barbel Starcke 37.20
2. Kerstin Gerschau 37.10
3. Nadia Comaneci 36.60
- National Champs. (Children's Division)
1. Onesti 188.60
2. Dunarea Galati 184.70
1. Mariana Cojanu 38.55
2. Nadia Comaneci 38.40
3. Viorica Dumitru 37.40
- Friendship Cup
The Romanian team finished 4th. Comaneci placed 8th AA (36.00), but won UB
(18.75) and B (18.60).
- ROM vs. Russian SSR (Juniors)
1. ROM 185.75
2. RSFSR 181.80
1. Comaneci 37.35
2. Tihonova 37.20
3. Grozdova 37.10
- ROM vs. HUN (Juniors)
1. ROM 183.80
2. HUN 182.35
1. Nadia Comaneci 37.50
2. Mariana Cojanu 36.70
- Romanian Jr. National Champs.
1. Onesti 184.85
2. Oradea 184.25
1. Nadia Comaneci 38.30
2. Mariana Cojanu 37.10
- Romanian School Champs.
Ungureanu won the Class I AA (36.70) and took all 4 event golds. Comaneci
competed in the "Masters" category and finished 3rd AA (36.30).
- Romanian Intl. Champs.
Comaneci won the AA (37.85) and all 4 event titles.
- ROM vs. ITA
Romania took the team title, and Comaneci finished 1st AA.
- Friendship Cup
Romania finished 3rd in the team competition; Comaneci won gold on AA
(37.85), V and UB and bronze on FX. Ungureanu won the B silver and finished
4th on UB. Some of the Soviet gymnasts were Nina Dronova, Nelli Kim (2nd AA
with 37.65), and Svetlana Grozdova.
- Romanian Junior Champs.
Ungureanu and Cojanu (both from Onesti) shared all the event golds, with
Ungureanu winning the AA with 73.65. With this win, she obtained the title
"Master of Sport."
- Romanian Schools Champs.
The team from Onesti won (370.00), 13 points ahead of 2nd place Dinamo
Bucharest. Comaneci won the AA with 75.85 (Ungureanu was injured and didn't
- The team from Onesti was not allowed to compete in the national team
championships (master category) because of an age limit of 14 years.
- Tri-Meet: Onesti-Denver (USA)-Poland
Onesti placed 1st in the team competition, with Comaneci winning the AA
- Friendship Cup
Romania took the team title (184.00). Ungureanu won gold on UB and B, and
Cojanu took the UB bronze. Comaneci injured her leg on FX and had to
withdraw from the meet.
- Champions All
1. Nadia Comaneci 37.30
2. Ludmila Savina (URS) 37.10
3. Avril Lennox (GBR) 36.55
- European Champs.
Comaneci won the AA (38.85) and the V, UB, and B titles.
1. Nadia Comaneci 76.85
2. Nelli Kim 76.50
3. Teodora Ungureanu 75.50
4. Olga Koval (URS) 74.40
Comaneci won an individual gold on UB, silver on V and FX, and bronze on B.
Ungureanu took the B silver and FX bronze.
- ROM vs. CAN
1. ROM 388.60
2. CAN 381.65
Nadia scored 6 perfect 10's at this competition.
- ROM vs. USA
1. ROM 383.70
2. USA 381.50
Nadia's highest score here was a 9.95 on V.
- American Cup
New York, NY
1. Nadia Comaneci 39.70
2. Kathy Howard (USA) 38.15
3. Elena Davydova (URS) 36.85
-- Nadia's "Report Card" from the 8th Grade --
Romanian 7.66 French 9.66
English 10.00 History 8.66
Math 7.33 Physics 8.33
Chemistry 8.00 Biology 9.00
Geography 7.33 Music 9.66
-- Daily Program --
6:00 - 8:00 AM Training
8:00 - 12:00 PM Lessons
12:00 - 1:00 PM Lunch
1:00 - 2:00 PM Rest
2:00 - 4:00 PM Homework
4:00 - 9:00 PM Training
9:00 - 10:00 PM Dinner, Homework, then Sleep
"Nadia", Ioan Chirla, Editura Sport-Turism, Bucharest, 1977.
"Nadia Comaneci si echipa de aur", D. Dumitru, Editura Sport-Turism,
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 08:39:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New member..
I'll briefly introduce myself before I actually get to the topic of my
message, which (for anyone who is impatient) is men and gymnastics. My
name is Robert (as witnessed by the .sig below, and the name
above), I'm a junior in high school in Washington, DC. I currently plan
to major in Computer Science in college, I administrate the school's UNIX
Internet gateway. My experience with gymnastics is limited to some
gymnastics in middle school (about 5 years ago) and to having taken it
this year (for the first time in 5 years). Now onto the message.
While reading the results posted on the group by someone else (I'm sorry,
I've forgotten the name ;), I noted a number of comments about the smaller
audience for men's gymnastics, and the fact that it is not appreciated as
much as it could, or should be. I'd like to try to answer this in some
form. At Sidwell, where I attend, there is a gymnastics course offered in
the spring season. It is offered as of 5th grade, and is available
through to 12th grade (although it was nearly canceled last year with the
arrival of a new head of the athletics department). I, along with a
number of other boys (although still overwhelmingly out-numbered by girls)
participated during 5th and 6th grade. I signed up additionally in 7th
grade, but found that the pressure not to participate was enoumous, as it
was not considered a "boy's" sport. I never actually attended the class,
despite the fact that I really wanted to, and did not sign up in 8th grade
for that class, instead signing up for tennis (which I can play, but don't
In eleventh grade (this year), I decided to sign up again, after having
asked a few good friends and having been told that I should do what I
want, not what other people think I should do. At the same time, one
other boy decided he would attend (I was not aware of this until after I'd
made my decision), and we in turn caused about 5 other boys to decide to
take it also. The gymnastics course at Sidwell in high school has
traditionally been all girls, and this year it was more than a little
That amount of discouragement at such an early age is REALLY daunting.
Despite the fact that I "knew better" than to worry about what other
people thought, that did not stop me from being worried a great deal, both
in middle school, and up until the start of the course this year. This
same daunting environment has probably stopped many potential male
gymnasts from ever getting started in the sport, in the past, and nobody
has ever challenged this in Sidwell. I have no doubt in my mind that
this is similar to many other high school level situations, with no doubt
the same effects. If we want more men to participate in gymnastics, there
is the desperate need to encourage boys to participate at a young age.
Imagine if this same situation was in effect for females - most gymnasts
at the Olympic level are VERY young - and if they had not had the courage
to participate until they were 17 and in high school, their potential
could never have shown itself, and they would not even have had the chance
to try. I'm told (although I'm not sure) that the orientation of men's
gymnastics is a slightly older age, this is probably why. It is not until
college that the chance is really given for a significant number of men to
participate in the sport.
The reason that I bring this up is also personal - I would like to
continue in the sport, and while I will probably never make it to the
Olympics (;), I would like to continue at an amateur level. Sidwell only
offers the course in the spring, and I certainly wouldn't mind doing it
out of school to meet PE credit, as the other sports at Sidwell have never
greatly interested me. As I understand it (and I really don't know much
in this area), there are a lot of private clubs/organizations, but most
cost no small amount of money. I cannot get a regular job in the US
until next year (I'm a British citizen by birth, but am currently applying
for a green card), so cannot afford to pay for this myself, at least not
any large amount. My parents are unlikely to pay for it. Is there any
relatively cheap way to participate in the sport? Are clubs and
organizations enthusiastic enough about encouraging male participation in
the sport that they might be willing to offer discount, or at least
provide individual encouragement in the area. I know for a fact that it
would take a LOT of courage for me to walk into a gym somewhere and ask
for information on signing up (in fact, it gives me a queasy feeling just
thinking about it ;). It is still the case that if someone asks what
sport I took this spring, I would hesitate to answer, and avoid the
topic. I certainly plan to participate in college (assuming that it is
available at the college I attend, and I hope it is), however, in the
interim... Sidwell cannot offer gymnastics all year around, the resources are
not available. No doubt these resources are available elsewhere.. Any
help/advice/moralizing/whatever would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance...
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 11:38:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New member..
> The gymnastics course at Sidwell in high school has
> traditionally been all girls, and this year it was more than a little
The Sidwell PE course may have traditionally been "all girls", but this
didn't seem to stop Jair from doing ok. Yes, I know, his gymnastics
success didn't have anything to do with Sidwell's PE class, but if
you want to succeed in gymnastics in the D.C area, it certainly can be done.
> there are a lot of private clubs/organizations, but most
> cost no small amount of money.
Yes. It costs money to do gymnastics in a club. It also costs money to
go to Sidwell. Therefor, their gymnastics 8 week course is not free.
But the local clubs are set up to teach the sport in a safe way...all
year long. Don't be intimidated by asking questions at a club.
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 17:04:05 +119304128 (EDT)
Subject: Olympic Creed
I don't know if this is totally relevant to this list, but I have
a friend who really needs a copy of the Olympic Creed by tomorrow evening
but can't find it anywhere. If anyone can help me out that would be
GREAT! Thanks in advance! -Alison
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 22:39:37 EDT
Subject: Olympic Creed
The Olympic Creed:
The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take
part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the
struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 18:15:58 EDT
Subject: Olympic Creed
>just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the
Ain't that the truth, since, in the end, we all lose.
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 16:09:44 EDT
Subject: Re-preview of the Hilton Challenge
I attended workout again this morning. Thought I'd update some comments from
USA women -- looking to be muc cheerier today. Borden hit better. Dawes was
practicing a hand pike front (no twist)... high and tight. I don't know what
happened to her Yurch. front 1/2. She still has no release on bars, but you
just gotta like her full-out dismount. Teft's half-in-half-out mount on
floor looked like a full-in today. Still a large step forward on her 2.5
twist. She definitely does a full-twisting double layout off of bars... and
it's pretty good too. She was hitting it well today. Davis was not any
different from yesterday. Her form seems to need improvement, a la Dawes of
a couple years ago.
Chinese women -- were missing all over the place except for beam. Lacking
the usual polish. Very weak on tumbling ... maybe one or two full-ins, at
most? On bars, they were missing every other release. One had a nice Tk. to
Xiao Ruzhi combo -- but missed the X.R. more consistently than she hit it.
Their vaulting... well, they just aren't getting much block off the horse.
Belarussian women -- Piskun is *much* improved over yesterday... she's taking
the time to point her toes now. Her leaps on beam are excellent; her
full-hop over the bar displays excellent technique; her ff full-twist on beam
is very exciting. And of course, her double twisting Yurch. is as awesome as
ever. The title will be between her and Dawes, I think. Svetlana Tarasevida
does a double front dismount off of beam -- but misses it every 3 out of 4
times. The Belarussians look to be cranking it up on bars and vault, but
missing more than they should on floor tumbling and beam dismounts.
Men in general -- woo woo, what nice abs these guys have. ;) Anyways, they
did not train very coherently -- much more loosely organized than the women.
The Chinese look to be doing per usual. Nothing unusual. I saw a lot of
nice Kovacs from many of the men (Keswick, in particular), and some nice
full-twisting double layouts from the Belarussians. Ivankov -- what a little
boy! Very incredible gymnastics though. Scherbo is indeed not competing...
and in fact, the Belarussians are not replacing him. So they will compete
with only three men, with no score to drop. The USA men just don't seem to
hyped, but we'll see. Umphrey has a sore shoulder and so didn't work out
this morning; but I suppose that he is still going to compete.
The second Belarussian (sorry, I don't know who's who except for Ivankov)
seems to be very good, but the third... well, he kept missing here and there,
a lot in comparison to his teammates. So, with that in mind, and also
remembering that they only have three team members, it could be a rough night
Someone asked me for the name of Borden's music... haven't had a chance to
find this out, but it's definitely a jazzy '50's piece. The Belarussian
coach, Shinkar, was joking with Borden after she got off the floor, imitating
her butt-wiggling aren't-I-cute moves. They both went off into giggle
fits... it was pretty funny. ;)
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 14:34:56 EDT
Subject: Shelley Engel
I was rummaging around Gymn's ftp site and ran across some Olympic Fest
results in one of the trivia sets. It listed Shelley Engel as having won the
'91 competition. If this is who I think it is, she did the *coolest*
cartwheel-side somi series on beam (!!!!!). Does anyone know whatever
happened to her?
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 01:10:15 EDT
Subject: Trivia Questions Needed - #15
Now soliciting questions for Trivia Set #15. In honor of the Tri-Meet, the
topic will be "Chinese gymnasts."
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 03:28:29 EDT
Subject: Women's Europeans Video
I just received a letter from John Whitmore who is currently at the Women's
Europeans in Stokholm, SWE (or he was when he wrote me the note). Some of you
may be familer with John since he does sell the vidoes he makes of various
competitions. He's especially good at getting European footage that we here
in the US can't see. He does a great job and has very reasonable prices so if
you're interested in seeing video (NTSC VHS format) of these Women's European
Championships (or '89, '90, or '92) he has VERY thorough coverage as well as
interesting stuff like '89 & '91 Worlds and several DTB Cups, Artuther Gander
If you're interested you can write to him at...
John Whitmore/Sports Image
4 Wellington Rd.
Delmar, NY 12054
End of gymn Digest