gymn
Digest
Thu, 17 Feb 94 Volume 2 :
Issue 76
Today's
Topics:
"wuss" Male
gymnastics... (3 msgs)
Dave's shellacking (2 msgs)
Dave P's questions
deductions
outfits
PB and PH (2 msgs)
saluting
This is a digest of the
gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Feb 94 2:42:55 PST
From: <***@cisco.com>
Subject: "wuss" Male gymnastics...
Hmm. While
statements like "look at that inverted cross! What a wuss!"
are laughable, I think Men's gymnastics does have something
of a "fag"
reputation. Don't forget that
long before you are able to do that
inverted
cross, you probably spend years doing cartwheels and such
with your toes pointed, and stuff that looks like ballet
or
cheerleading. While the manhood of an international
calibre male
gymnast is
seldom questioned, the beginning gymnast is not likely to
be so lucky, and is more likely to be bothered by such
insinuations as
well...
For women, the
opposite is true. Everyone thinks little girls doing
cartwheels
is cute, but if you get to be a Nadia Comenici,
rumors
start circulating about the male hormones
you might be taking...
Chops
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:35:05 -0600 (CST)
From: <***@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
Subject:
"wuss" Male gymnastics...
On Wed,
16 Feb 1994, Chops wrote:
> Hmm. While statements like "look at that
inverted cross! What a wuss!" are
> laughable,
I think Men's gymnastics does have something of a "fag"
> reputation.
Don't forget that long before you are able to do that inverted
> cross, you probably spend years doing cartwheels and such
with your toes
> pointed, and stuff that looks
like ballet or cheerleading. While
the manhood
> of an international calibre male gymnast is seldom questioned, the
beginning
> gymnast is not likely to be so
lucky, and is more likely to be bothered by
> such
insinuations as well...
Where do you get the idea that men's
gymnastics is anything but
masculine. You are
either growing up in a girls gym or you have no
heroes
to emmulate. If you spent years doing cartwheels then
you have
wasted a lot of time pretending to be
involved in gymnastics. There
are so many
important basics that American boys simply avoid that can
make their gymnastics respectable in the future. And these
basics go
way past cartwheels. For example, put
kids in a bucket to increase
their strength and
get them excited about reaching a higher level on
an
event that may take years to perform well. Teach kids what
gymnastics is about and what is happening on the cutting
edge of the
sport. Get them thinking about how
they can be innovative.
People who contend that male gymnasts are just
a bunch of fags jumping
around in tights really
have no clue as to what the sport is about.
But who cares. I think that
ignorant coaching is the biggest problem.
If the students have a clear and
motivated idea of where they want to
get to in the
sport, than the rest of the public will be less critical
of
the early years. But if the students can't see far enough into
their future to see that their training is actually leading
to
something, than they are pursuing a hobby and
not training at a sport.
And calling somebody a wuss
for doing a high inverted cross doesn't
seem
logical. I would say that they are ignorant. A high inverted
cross is just stupid. It's about as stupid as throwing a
full-in if
you know your going to put your hands
down. Why can't we work tricks
in training until
they are able to be performed correctly in a
competition?
And if LaMorte is the only one in the world who can
do an
inverted correctly, than nobody else should
be competing it until they
can do so without being
an embarassment.
Did I go off too far on a
tangent?
David
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94
11:03:45 PST
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: "wuss"
Male gymnastics...
> And if LaMorte is
the only one in the world who can do an inverted
> correctly,
Paul O'Neal is also a Rings Monster who
does a great inverted
cross.
Dave
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Feb 94 10:54:16 PST
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: Dave's
shellacking
> Hmmm...
> I have come
to trust Daves opinion over
the months.
> It has been pounded into my skull over the years everytime I get into a
> gymn program, that what you learn trying to master PH
give you great
> advantage in other
events. I am constantly told that
to excell in other
> events,
I must master PH.
>
> Dave says Im all
wet on this, hmmm...
> Now ya got me ALL confoosed ! I mean I trust Dave, but I also take
the
> word of all these instructors too. What gives ?
I'd say the coaches are trying to
motivate you to do more PH, as PH
alone doesn't
motivate most gymnasts (as you've noticed). To an extent
pursuing
PH will help your other events in that it builds strength,
body position and ballance and
other required disciplines. Learning
and excelling
at PH will certainly not ever be detremental to
your
other events (unless you break your hand on
it like I did and lose 3
months of crucial
practice, but I'm not bitter :( and I wholeheartedly
recommend
to you that it will add a very good level of breadth to your
gymanstics knowledge and basics. I
think doing AA is a very good thing
so as to ballance a gymnast's experience and body type.
I have no idea as to your relative
moisture, but I believe you were
oversimplifing
in a way that could mislead others (as you yourself
were
misled).
Dave
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Feb 94 16:38:07 PST
From: "***@us.oracle.com"
Subject:
Dave's shellacking
OK Maybe I did deserve that shellacking. (Got any turpentine ?
Hmmmmm?)
Seriously,
I fell into the all to common trap of beieving people
simply because they were knowlegable
than I was on that particular
subject. When my toe
heals, I'll see CT again and tell him what you
told
me. Ill share the results. (Wish I could get him on
the net....)
------------------------------
Date: Wed,
16 Feb 94 17:44:14 PST
From: "***@us.oracle.com"
Subject:
Dave P's questions
Someone enlightened us;
>>
There are also deductions for profanity, and hitting the equipment in
>>
anger/disgust.
Needless to say, these seldom occur
>> in
high-level competition.
I think he was serious and not joking when
David asked;
>Is there a deduction for farting during a
routine?
[Texx winces at the thought] With
all the twisting bending and other
gyrations of
the body, I cant believe it doesnt move a certain
amount
of gas. My guesss
is that if a judges is understanding, he'll let
you
slide and if hes out
to get you, he could construe it to be an
"obscene
noise" and clobber you.
Personal experience, I have gotten CT
real pissed off when I did it in
class. I was
trying to be a good vegetarian and was living on bean &
rice soup. I have also had floor routines that consolidated
the gas on
one spot and caused great presure pains. They almost called 911
thinking I had internal hemorhaging.
On
Wed, 16 Feb 1994, Chops wrote:
>> Hmm. While statements like "look at that
inverted cross! What a wuss!" are
>> laughable,
I think Men's gymnastics does have something of a "fag"
>> reputation.
Don't forget that long before you are able to do that inverted
>>
cross, you probably spend years doing cartwheels and
such with your toes
>> pointed, and stuff
that looks like ballet or cheerleading.
While the
>> manhood of an international
calibre male gymnast is seldom questioned, the
>>
beginning gymnast is not likely to be so lucky, and is
more likely to be
>> bothered by such
insinuations as well...
David returns;
>Where
do you get the idea that men's gymnastics is anything but
>masculine. You
are either growing up in a girls gym or you have no
>heroes
to emmulate.
{...}
>There are so many important basics that American boys
simply avoid that can
>make their gymnastics
respectable in the future. Teach
kids what gymnastics
>is about and what is
happening o n the cutting edge of the sport. Get them
>thinking
about how they can be innovative.
I dont think this will ease the
"wuss factor" (tm) but it might help
us score better in world competitions. Doing better in world
competition will help us get more TV coverage as long as we
keep
winning. (Why do we only get coverage if we win ?!?) It will only
slightly
ease the crap that the adolesent gymnasts have to
contend
with.
>People who contend that
male gymnasts are just a bunch of fags jumping
>around
in tights really have no clue as to what the sport is about. But
>who
cares.
Good point in
theory. Look at adolesent peer presure.
In HS I wasnt so
bothered
by being called a fag, but when they started picking on my
straight teamates, THAT hurt! One
of the guys they started teasing,
his girlfriend
dumped it because she didnt want to be associated
with
someone with a that kind of rep. That teasing
started a downhill slide
that ultimately ruined
his life. He eventually dropped off the team,
his
grades fell from almost straight A's to F's. He dropped out of
school and ended up a bum on the street. This really opened
up my
eyes. Sure the people calling us names were
truly clueless about the
sport, but that did
nothing to ease the pain we endured. This kind or
peerpresure that we permit in our children to endure
is the true enemy
of mens
gymn in the USA.
>I think that ignorant
coaching is the biggest problem. If
>the students have a clear and motivated idea
of where they want to get to
>in the sport,
than the rest of the public will be less critical of the
>early years.
If being seen walking out the door of
Somebody's Gymnastics training
centre
is enough to make you the brunt of every emasculating remark
concievable, upon word of it
reaching your school, what makes you
think that
guy is going to stay even one year?
This is because we continue to
teach that "Real Men" (tm) play
football,
baseball & basketball & a few other "manly" sports. It
will
take nearly 2 generations to eradicate this
myth once we get off our
butts and do it.
I
agree that our training needs improvement, but I dont
think that
will solve the underlying cause of mens gymn's bad rep.
This
is a bad rep we never deserved as it is one pinned on
us by
clueless cretins, but now that it is upon
us, we must find new ways to
combat it.
Who
knows ? Maybe in solving this mess, we may
accidentally solve
others. I presume you all know
that "Superbowl Suday"
is the most
dangerous day of the year for women.
More women are assaulted and/or
beaten on Superbowl Sunday than any other day of the year.
>And
calling somebody a wuss for doing a high inverted
cross doesn't seem
>logical. I would say that they are ignorant.
I fear you may have lost the original context here (nervous
chuckle).
I said that guys gymn
has a bad rep to shake and someone said that
they couldnt imagine someone calling a guy doing a cross a wuss. My
point was that people
seldom take potshots at guys on the USOC Team
USA. Now guys who are
starting gymn at 10 or continuing at 15 have to
take a lot of crap from those not involved in the sport.
This causes
boys to think twice before starting a gymn career.
>Did I go off too far on a
tangent?
NOPE ! You covered a couple subjects
all withing the scope of the
list.
You did take a previous post out of context but I think we fixed
that last paragraph. Course we BOTH are gonna
get busted by the
NETCOPS for the start of this post! (Ths
judging part)
Is coach Hayeda still running mens gymn @ UIUC
?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Feb
1994 16:28:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
Subject:
deductions
While we're
speaking about random deductions, one that was enforced
while
I was competing (about 1986) was a .5 deduction for pulling your
leo down after it rode up your
rear before the routine was over.
Cara P.S. My
take on men's floor - Chris Waller has better
choreograpy than most women on floor. But this has me
thinking - what
if a female were to do a silent
floor routine?!! THAT would be cool. I
could
imagine Boginskaya being highly successful at it. One
of my
modern dance classes really stressed not
using music in order not to
be confined by it, and
I think that women's floor is pretty confining
at
the moment.
Anyone that follows
skating - Kurt Browning did an EXCELLENT short
program
last year to a piece (I think it was Led Zepplin)
with mostly
arhythmic
percussion that was amazing - I would love to see more men's
floor music - just not make it a requirement. I HATE idiotic
women's
floor.
Another note - Mishkutenok
and Dimitriev have been my favorite pair
since I first saw them in 1990. It's okay that the judges were
lame -
I can accept that. It's just the fact that they blew everyone
else
away makes me very, very happy and I wanted
to share that with y'all.
Thanks.
Again, Cara (my postscript is longer than my posting...)
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Feb 94 23:42:48 PST
From: <***@cisco.com>
Subject:
outfits
EVERY
meet the girls have to come out in a new outfit.
That sounds pretty
excessive. On the other hand, that means you can
use
your old outfits for workout clothes. A leotard probably needs
washed after one workout, and unless you want to to continuous
laundry, that
means a pretty sizable collection.
Some teams don't have official
uniforms. And for girls, the clothes
are half the
fun, right? :-)
My old uniforms (or the pieces I was allowed to keep)
are amoung my
more
treasured memoribilia...
Chops
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Feb 94 0:16:33 PST
From: <***@cisco.com>
Subject: PB and
PH
This was supposed to go to the list...
---------------
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 23:00:56 PST
From:
"***@us.oracle.com"
Subject: Re: PB and PH
I enjoyed
Chops post;
> Men's (and women's)
gymnastics won't ever compete with standard sports
> for
many reasons, but the largest (I feel) is simply that it isn't a
> very
easy sport. You can't just grab a
ball and start playing with no
> experience
like you can with most sports.
{...}
>Amen. And I agree that this is the crux of the
matter. Gymnastics has no
>"putter" level.
You can't get pumped up by the meet on TV, and go out and
>throw a couple of double-backs in your backyard with our
kids. You can't
>jump on a highbar with your buddy
and have a good time, because while
>neither of
you is any good, you are evenly matched against each other.
>(This works
for Tenis, golf, and many other sports.)
Interesting...
But
what of the spectator side ?
Are you saying that
because people cant do it they wont watch it?
I
see alot of people watching sports they cat do.
How
many people go to a rodeo but couldnt rope a calf to
save their lives?
(Hardest part is keeping the calf from kicking your face
after you tackle it!)
Go out with your buddies and do it? Sure!
Tumbling on the back lawn is
great fun. I DID make
a mistake and try to do a hi-bar practice at a
playground.
I discovered to my chagrin that the h-bar there was about
half again the diameter of the hb
at the gymn. The paint on the bar
also left a rather gross stain on the grips I was trying to
break in.
Fun ? NOT !
Equipment
costs: Well I did a LOT of ring work this one place. It had
the steadiest frame I ever worked with. A pair of $3.00
eyebolts
through the ceiling beam. A couple more
bucks of steel cable. Id say
less
than $10 plus the ring assy.
For the sake of bandwidth, Ill trim down the part about PH. I stated
what
I have had pounded into my skull by people I REALLY trust. Im
kinda doing buttyerflies
because this is the first time they have been
wrong.
>
PH is the "most different" event (and therefore quite unlike
beam).
My point is that out of the womens
events it is the most hated.
Racheles post about judges jokes proves this out. As the girls often
dislike beam, guys dislike the horse. It does however
teach
fundamentals that are essential to other
moves and events. PH
fundamentals are used in FX
PB SR. Thinking about it, I dont see PH
fundamentals in HB or vault though. So PH & BEAM teach
foundations
used in other skils,
and are often disliked in their own fields.
Outside that they are quite
different events. At least that is what
has been
pounded into me over the years.... I did not mean to say beam
& ph were similar, just both bring
groans from students.
> Yank PB
? Hey PB is as close as mens gymn gets to bloodsport.
> Remember, here in the
US, bloodsport sells.
> Huh? I've always
regarded PB as one of the safer events.
I mean, if you
> wipe out, you've got
TWO bars to aim for, and hitting either with nearly
> any
part of your body is likely to be good for you. I'm having a hard time
> figuring out how that guy managed to break his neck
dismounting PB. (Not
> that he doesn't have my sympathies, but I've seen people do
REALLY BAD
> double backs, and the usual
recovery mode is that you catch the bar with an
> arm
or shoulder.) I mean, the usual
body parts at risk are your toes and
> your
... Oh. I see. And Men's vaulting was probably more
popular when
> everyone did straddle
vaults?
[Texx is hysterical with
laughter]
[Texx is STILL hysterical with
laughter]
[Texx still hasnt
quit laughing yet but has recovered enough to type]
I am not laughing
about Kerrys fall but the other bit... [There I
go
AGAIN !] OWWWWWWWWW !!!!!
I havent seen footage of Kerry's
wipeout.
I've taken flak for bringing up blood before, but would
someone who
HAS seen it please post naration of
the accident anyway?
Hopefully we can learn from it as we analyze the
mechanics of Kerry's
mishap. (I hear he is now
expected to make an almost full recovery. He
is
expected to have a normal life and the only doubt is whether or not
he has to quit gymnastics)
My understanding is that
he basically landed out of reach of the bars
to
stop himself and landed on his head. Is this right ?
The
nastiest wipeouts I have ever seen are PH & PB, although I have
had some real gruesome ones on HB too. (You already heard
the power
failure story)
Introducing bloodsport to gymn would not be a
good idea, but I was
responding to someones desire to "jazz" things up a bit.
As
of tonight, I am no longer worried about the crummy press coverage
mens gymn
is getting. A solution is within reach. [EVIL grin]
>> Dance
does not equal grace.
> Well, texx didn't
necessarilly ask for dance. He asked for music.
I
didnt mean to. I meant to ask that we quit hassling
guys who do want
music.
I LOVED Racheles line about sitting around because some girls
music
broke. "Been there, done that !" I think I STILL want tunes anyways.
Something
to put me in the right mood.... Ah YES ! "Flight
of the
Valkries" (Kill the wabbit for you "Fuddie duddies")
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Feb 94 0:44:49 PST
From: <***@cisco.com>
Subject: PB and
PH
But what
of the spectator side ?
Are you saying that because
people cant do it they wont watch it?
Uh, sort of. At least, as a "sport".
I see alot
of people watching sports they cat do.
How many people go to a
rodeo but couldnt rope a calf to save their
lives?
True, but most people can ride a horse. Then again, one has to
draw a
line somewhere to account for
"performance sports". Gymnastics events
like
the olympic tour bring in plenty of spectators, even
for the men,
but it doesn't carry over into
popularity for HS and College
competition. Even
more will watch the acrobats at a circus.
Tumbling on the back lawn is
great fun. I DID make a mistake and
try
to do a hi-bar practice at a playground. I discovered to my chagrin
that
the h-bar there was about half again the diameter of the hb
at
the gymn. The paint on the bar also left a rather
gross stain on the
grips I was trying to break in.
Heh. HS teammates of mine learned giants on a bar in their
backyard
while drunk and/or stoned, but I wouldn't
recomend it. Golden Gate
park
has an all metal Pommel horse that I've done doubles on...
Equipment costs: Well I did
a LOT of ring work this one place.
It had
the steadiest frame I ever worked with. A pair of $3.00 eyebolts
through
the ceiling beam.
To some extent, gymnastics may have progressed too
far to be
economical. (especially
for small colleges and High schools) (and
become too dangerous to be insurable?) In the Old days, most
ring sets
were suspended from the ceiling beams.
Sometimes the cables were
really long, and
sometimes quite short, and it made a big difference.
People who do double
layouts and the like will insist on the spring of
a
free-standing frame, I think, as well as wanting the cables to be
the standard length. You can do a lot of tumbling on a foam
mat you
share with the wrestling team, but
school-to-school variation is
awful, softness and
springiness depend on the temperature, and I
wouldn't
want to land from TOO high. In older days, they just tumbled
on wooden gym floors. I saw an exhibition team do this -
they had guys
doing full-twists. It hurt just to
watch. And the vaulting horse and
pommel horse
used to be the same piece of equipment... I competed at
one
HS whose P-Bars were painted and slippery as hell...
As the girls often dislike
beam, guys dislike the horse.
And for some of the same reasons - you
get a little off balance, and there
is no way to
correct, so you fall off. But beam
is basically floor skills,
while PH isn't like
anything else.
PH fundamentals are used in FX PB SR.
I don't think I see it.
While you can do doubles, flairs, and such on
floor
and PBs, they are just PH moves transported to the other events.
They
aren't "basics" on the other events, and they don't build to
anything else, even in principle (eg,
the way swing on PH, PB, HB, and
SR are all
related.) I don't see how PH applies to SR at all (but I
suck
on rings.) The only useful thing from PH that applies to other
events is the "rigid body" concept...
My understanding is that he
basically landed out of reach of the bars to
stop
himself and landed on his head. Is
this right ?
That would be my guess. But
usually, by the time one does double backs
in
competition, the same errors that would cause you to land on your
head would also keep you from getting too far from the bars.
Of
course, some people spend effort getting far
away from the bars, for
fear of
"laughable" injuries. Me - the bars are my friends. I've had
plenty of wipeouts that leave me hanging by one arm on some
bar
somewhere (HB and PB.) I've also broken toes
(then the TRAINERS laugh
at you!) and come within half in inch or so of that "other"
injury.
(By the way, anyone who's ever had it happen, or taken a self defense
class, will tell
you that it's NOT funny, and can even be fatal...)
Chops
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Feb 1994 08:40:23 -0600 (CST)
From: <***@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
Subject:
saluting
> There are also deductions for profanity, and hitting the
equipment in
>
anger/disgust.
Needless to say, these seldom occur
> in
high-level competition.
Is there a deduction for farting during a
routine?
David
------------------------------
End of
gymn Digest
******************************