gymn Digest Sat, 2 Jul 94 Volume 2 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:
Commonwealth Games on the Internet
Compos and collegians
compulsories (22 msgs)
Dawes' UB
Gymn Administravia
Gymn Poll #3
Hello!
Kim Zmeskal
Mary Lou on Baywatch
Sears Directors Cup (fwd)
Trivia Questions Needed
Women's Rankings
Women in sports study...

This is a digest of the gymn@athena.mit.edu mailing list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 06:52:23 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Commonwealth Games on the Internet

Found this on the Olympic newsgroup and thought I'd pass it along. If anyone
cares there was a further press release about the service that I deleted...

The Victoria Free-Net is pleased to announce a special project for the
XV Commonwealth Games which will be held in Victoria from August 18th to 28th
this year.

A special Web server is being set up that will provide real time results
and other information to the Internet community. The Victoria Free-Net is
co-operating in this venture with several other high profile players. The
official press release from the British Columbia Ministry of Tourism
appears below. The Victoria Free-Net will also be providing accounts to
Games
athletes on request for those that will be able to communicate with their
homes during the event. When the service becomes active (see below) you
will be able to access it via our Web URL:

http://freenet.victoria.bc.ca/vifa.html

The current XV Commonwealth Games Information Page on the Victoria Free-Net
Web server is at:

http://freenet.victoria.bc.ca/XVCommonwealth.html

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 11:39:08 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: Compos and collegians

Any extension to the competition life of a gymnast is welcome. Teens like
Dawes can look forward to international competition while attending a
university if inclined to and keep up ability.

Collegiate gymnasts simply by their maturity would be a helpful addition to
any team. "Women's" gymnastics is a misnomer, lets welcome the Ladies and
help improve what can be a robotic affair in the "girls" gymnastic dept.

Connie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 10:57:33 +0800
From: ***@Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: compulsories

I may be in the minority, but I'll be sad to see the compulsories go. I
used to think they were kind of boring, but at last years Nationals they
were my favorite part of the meet. You really do get a sense of the
differences in the gymnasts' various strengths and weaknesses: Toe-point,
general poise, basic technique, an ability to blend moves in a fluid
fashion. It's no surprise that the winner in the compulsory round often
gets the highest score in the optionals.

The men's highbar compulsory is a real gem. Looked so simple, but you'd
be surprised how many of the guys fell off on the Wyler kip. Turns out
it's a pretty difficult routine.

What do the rest of you think about compulsories, aside from whether or not
dropping them will help college women compete internationally?

-George

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 1994 11:52:40 -0800
From: <***@qm.sri.com>
Subject: compulsories

Reply to: RE>compulsories

A carefully crafted optional routine can hide a gymnast's shortcomings. A
switch leg leap for example can camouflague a lack of flexibility; but a leap
of another sort does not do this (I suspect that Mary Lou never competed a
leap in an optional exercise, other than a switch leap. Other gymnasts rely
on different crutches)

Compulsories bring out differences in gymnasts in terms of aesthetics,
flexibility, grace, extension, toe point, and a number of other subtleties
that optionals gloss over. If you really want to reward the best gymnast,
compulsories are essential. Optional routines, arguably, measure the ability
to perform difficult skills and compose routines that emphasize strengths and
minimize shortcomings. This reality is a test (of a coach's) creativity, but
it doesn't help determine the best gymnast, in my opinion.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 16:17:36 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: compulsories

George A. says:
>I may be in the minority, but I'll be sad to see the compulsories go. I
>used to think they were kind of boring, but at last years Nationals they
>were my favorite part of the meet. You really do get a sense of the
>differences in the gymnasts' various strengths and weaknesses: Toe-point,
>general poise, basic technique, an ability to blend moves in a fluid
>fashion. It's no surprise that the winner in the compulsory round often
>gets the highest score in the optionals.

I agree that they are great for comparing gymnasts. It's one thing to see
each gymnast show off his or her strengths, but it's also great to see them
all do the same routine so that you can compare on even ground. Of course,
they're probably never perfectly "fair" as any particular compulsory routine
may cater more to one gymnasts strengths than another's. Anyhow, I join
George in being sad about their possible demise.

--Robyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 13:20:58 PDT
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: compulsories

I think compulsories are a good thing as well. Sure, I didn't like
them as much as optionals when I was competing, but I think it is a great way
to get an objective assesment of a gymnast's ability. While everyone has
their own strengths and weaknesses, weaknesses can be hidden in optional
routines (despite the requirements). If the compulsory routines are well
chosen (I won't vouch for any as I've not kept up with them since I
competed years ago), they should demonstrate a breadth of ability. This
should separate the truly clean and good gymnasts from those who may have a
couple of good moves in their optional, but aren't as talented in the
overall picture. Another good thing about compulsories is they get rid of
any sort of scoring considerations that always get debated in optionals.
The judges are thoroughly familiar with the routines and there are no
suprise moves to factor in the scoring, making it (supposedly) a much more
accurate score for any routine.
One last thing about compulsories is that at the lower competion
levels it allows the USGF to guide (somewhat) the progress of gymnasts.
For instance, the 1988 floor compulsory required front flip-flops to
emphasize front tumbling, something that only the Russians were doing well
at the time. This way US gymnasts were require to become proficient in
font tumbling at the lower levels.

Dave

George Atkins writes:
> I may be in the minority, but I'll be sad to see the compulsories go. I
> used to think they were kind of boring, but at last years Nationals they
> were my favorite part of the meet. You really do get a sense of the
> differences in the gymnasts' various strengths and weaknesses: Toe-point,
> general poise, basic technique, an ability to blend moves in a fluid
> fashion. It's no surprise that the winner in the compulsory round often
> gets the highest score in the optionals.
>
> The men's highbar compulsory is a real gem. Looked so simple, but you'd
> be surprised how many of the guys fell off on the Wyler kip. Turns out
> it's a pretty difficult routine.
>
> What do the rest of you think about compulsories, aside from whether or not
> dropping them will help college women compete internationally?
>
> -George

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 20:13:09 EDT
From: <***@BBN.COM>
Subject: compulsories

I'm also sorry to see compulsories go, for the same reason
already mentioned: it was a standard you could use to measure
all the gymnasts. Robyn points out that any particular
compulsory exercise might happen to favor some gymnasts'
strong suits over others, but if the same compulsories
are in place for several years, don't coaches have the
opportunity to "teach to the test"?

As a spectator, I found it fascinating how dissimilar the
exercises actually ended up being, given the difference
in style, expression, amplitude, fluidity, etc., from
gymnast to gymnast. The only drawback was floor ex,
where you had the same 70-second tune drilled into your
brain :-).

I'd also think that the argument for keeping compulsory
figures in figure skating applies here: If the compulsories
test the mastery of skills basic to being a truly fine
gymnast, then having them encourages athletes to
"walk before they run." Otherwise, there's too much
emphasis on big tricks.

All that being said, I have to agree with those who'd
like to see ways to allow older female gymnasts (not just
the US' NCAA, but other college-aged women) to stay
competitive at the international level. Shouldn't the
new age requirements help here? Or is the extra expense
in time and coaching funds needed for compulsories
just too much for the NCAA athletes? What have the
US men done in the past about this problem?

>>Kathy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 21:27:09 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: compulsories

>What do the rest of you think about compulsories, aside from whether or not
dropping them will help college women compete internationally?

I think dropping compos is an *awful* idea!

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 09:51:50 +1000
From: <***@pharm.med.upenn.edu>
Subject: compulsories

>I'm also sorry to see compulsories go, for the same reason
>already mentioned:
don't coaches have the
>opportunity to "teach to the test"?

Absolutely coaches teach to the test, the only problem is that coaches, as
well as gymnasts interpret moves very differently. so, you will always
have variation in compulsaries. What is absolutely hysterical at larger
meets where people don't know what they are watching is that they don't
know the routines are the same, except they do wonder why the women all
chose the same music. I have heard more than one person suddenly figure
out that the routines were the same after an hour or more of watching the
meet.


>All that being said, I have to agree with those who'd
>like to see ways to allow older female gymnasts (not just
>the US' NCAA, but other college-aged women) to stay
>competitive at the international level. Shouldn't the
>new age requirements help here? Or is the extra expense
>in time and coaching funds needed for compulsories
>just too much for the NCAA athletes? What have the
>US men done in the past about this problem?
>
>>>Kathy

First of all, regarding the men, remember their level of international
competition normally doesn't start until they are in college, often Juniors
and seniors,- unlike women who are in high school sometimes Junior High -
Drew Durbin of OSU and Blaine Wilson OSU are the first men to be on the
national team as freshmen - and although they are good gymnasts their lack
of meet experience comes through on the floor - especially at the bigger
competitions. At Big 10s (good size meet, but not the pressure of
Nationals) they looked really great, but as the pressure increased at the
end of the season performances decreased. I don't know if that was really
the reason, but there is some pretty strong evidence suggesting such a
thing. There really isn't that much extra expense in training for
compulsaries - they are to cover the basics (there aren't any E moves -
(please correct me if I am wrong) that I know of, and a low number of D's)
- some guys need to learn a couple of new moves - healey on PB is one a lot
of guys are not thrilled about - but for the most part it is putting
together routines of moves they use regularly or learned many moons ago.

Personally, I love comps. and wish they would leave them alone - Takeing
them out of some of the large meets is fine, but Olympics and Worlds (for
individual titles) I think it is really important to include them.

Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 10:08:45 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: compulsories

Kathy writes:
>Robyn points out that any particular
>compulsory exercise might happen to favor some gymnasts'
>strong suits over others, but if the same compulsories
>are in place for several years, don't coaches have the
>opportunity to "teach to the test"?

Yeah, but...

My point was more about innate differences in the gymnasts that
tend to make certain types of moves easier or look nicer on them
(i.e. a leap that just looks better on a taller girl). Some girls
are more flexible than others. Some are more powerful and others
more graceful, some are twisters while others are not such great
twisters, etc. (I say this for girls, but it applies to the men
too.)

Anyhow, I think this is a small problem, and that compulsories
should still be kept. I'm sure that a lot of thought goes into
trying to make them as fair as possible.

--Robyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 15:35:58 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: compulsories

>My point was more about innate differences in the gymnasts that
>tend to make certain types of moves easier or look
nicer on them
>(i.e. a leap that just looks better on a taller
girl). Some girls
>are more flexible than others. Some are more
powerful and others
>more graceful, some are twisters while others are not
such great
>twisters, etc. (I say this for girls, but it applies
to the men
>too.)

Surely that problem exists though for the whole competition and
not just compulsories, its just one of those things. Ok so
in compulsory they would show up more since you would expect a
coach to steer away from bad looking moves in a normal routine
but shouldnt the judges be marking on technical merit
rather than an
artistic impression in the first place.

Clive

Come on Brazil.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 11:10:50 +1000
From: <***@pharm.med.upenn.edu>
Subject: compulsories

I'm sure that a lot of thought goes into
>trying to make them as fair as possible.
>
>--Robyn


I guess the thought on Compularies is relative - they are determined by
coaches from around the world --

Coaches are contacted "asked" to be part of the "FX" compulsary committee.
Each coach then develops a routine, submits it, committee meets, discusses,
some changes are made, but for the most part one particular routine is
chosen, and a final routine is developed. Not a whole lot of time is spent
on this.

Often a coach will have a kid complain about a routine and their comeback
is don't blame me for this one. Of course this is at the international and
elite levels. More time might be put into national compulsaries. So the
coaches are none to displeased about getting rid of the compularies as far
as the development part.

There is also the problem with intrepretaion. Lets say a reverse hecht is
included in the routine. One person does it laid out, another piked. In an
optional routine it is easy to grade, not so in comps. In many cases the
laid out should be deducted, because it is a piked one that the committee
specified. So what do the judges do - the lay out is more difficult, give
the guy bonuses (judge1) - not the right move , deduct (judge2) =
conference (let's not mention the crowd saying - "why deduct that is nicer
looking, even people in the know of gymnastics often don't understand why a
conference - lots of space for different interpretations and
misunderstandings here) =long meet. In other words - judging comps is
probably more difficult than optionals because of intrepretation, and the
emphasis each judge places on what the gymnast is supposed to show.

Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 11:30:16 EDT
From: <***@MIT.EDU>
Subject: compulsories

Mayland says:
>There is also the problem with intrepretaion. Lets say a reverse hecht is
>included in the routine. One person does it laid out, another piked. In an
>optional routine it is easy to gr>ade, not so in comps. In many cases the
>laid out should be deducted, because it is a piked one that the committee
>specified. So what do the judges do - the lay out is more difficult, give
>the guy bonuses (judge1) - not the right move , deduct (judge2) =
>conference (let's not mention the crowd saying - "why deduct that is nicer
>looking, even people in the know of gymnastics often don't understand why a
>conference - lots of space for different interpretations and
>misunderstandings here) =long meet. In other words - judging comps is
>probably more difficult than optionals because of intrepretation, and the
>emphasis each judge places on what the gymnast is supposed to show.

Seems this difficulty could be all together avoided by very clearly describing
the routine (maybe make a videotape that coaches can get their hands on to
check) and specifying that any deviations will be deducted, *even* if the
move substituted is a more difficult one.

--Robyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 16:40:36 BST
From: ***@axion.bt.co.uk
Subject: compulsories

Robyn stated:
>Seems this difficulty could be all together avoided
by very clearly describing
>the routine (maybe make a videotape that coaches can
get their hands on to
>check) and specifying that any deviations will be
deducted, *even* if the
>move substituted is a more difficult one.

I agree, there seem little point running a compulsory
competition if
the moves to be done are open to individual interpretation. If
the description of the move is so vague to allow two
possible versions
of a move then what is the point. The possible moves should
be clearly laid out and attention should be drawn to
possible variations
on moves which will not be accepted.


Clive

Come on Brazil, come on Brazil.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 13:09:13 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: compulsories

Just to throw in my "2 cents" worth:

Though compulsories are repetitious in nature for major events, I think
they provide a function in setting up the "basics" to developing
more complicated routines. Even in training it provides some
service in helping to concentrate on such things as fluidness and toe point.
In figure skating, preliminary competition in figures, helped the skater's
blade edge on the ice. Many skaters who looked forward to jumping into the
top ten without figures, suffered from some lack of precision (though
obviously precision in gymnastics is an entirely different affair injury
wise).

Connie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 11:50:09 PDT
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: compulsories

Mayland writes:
> laid out should be deducted, because it is a piked one that the committee
> specified. So what do the judges do - the lay out is more difficult, give
> the guy bonuses (judge1) - not the right move , deduct (judge2) =
> conference

This shouldn't be an issue. Compulsories must be done to the code,
or they don't really have much of a purpose.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 12:00:57 PDT
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: compulsories

Kathy writes:
> All that being said, I have to agree with those who'd
> like to see ways to allow older female gymnasts (not just
> the US' NCAA, but other college-aged women) to stay
> competitive at the international level.

I've heard this a few times on gymn in the last few weeks. How is
it that getting rid of compulsories will help collegiate women compele
internationally?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 18:48:36 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: compulsories

>Seems this difficulty could be all together avoided by very clearly
>describing the routine (maybe make a videotape that coaches can >get their
hands on to check) and specifying that any deviations will >be deducted,
*even* if the move substituted is a more difficult one.

Compulsories are demonstrated at major congresses to avoid these problems. Of
course a major problem is the way each country interprets the name of a move.
In 1989 every single Romaanian girl did the cmpulsory beam tumbling pass
incorrectly...no deduciton was taken but that probaly has more to do with
them being Romania then anythng else.

Compulsories all have areas where the best can show they're the best by doing
something just slightly better...in the '92 Men's rings routine only the best
and strongest gymnasts could carry the dismount through handstand. There are
always areas - even in a set routines - to show off. If any girl vcould learn
the newest compo (though what's the point since they're fighting to have it
removed from the Olympics in '96 which would mean that Saebe was the only
time it was used) correctly and emphasized the many tour jetes and sinai
leaps it could be quite beautiful.

I love the personal comparision that can be done via compuslories but I also
think that they are helpful in training. For example, though the scores did
not reflect this, Shannon Miller (and it's not that I hate her or anything so
don't get your panties in a bunch it's just an example) can *not* do an
aerbesque (sp? as usual is dismal). There were about 50 in the routine and
she never hit any...she then went on to score the highest AA in compulsories.


Now the deeper question, why can't she do such a simple and basic skill that
is so intregal to the sport? She certainly has the neccessary flexibilty and
it's hardly a matter of lax training on Shannon's part. I mean Chusovitna -
who is hardly the most fluid of girls - can hit an aerbesque. Frankly besides
the Chinese and Soviets few girls can (and of the few most have Chinese or
Soviet coaches). It proves that what most lack is good fundamental
training...if you can't do the basics they don't start teaching you the hard
stuff. The cutting of cumpolsories will only intensify this gap.

Susan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 21:42:54 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: compulsories

>How is
it that getting rid of compulsories will help collegiate women compele
>internationally?

Not needing 12+ hours a week to train them...

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 19:13:56 PDT
From: ***@geoworks.com
Subject: compulsories

So (it seems) it is more a matter that non-collegiate female
gymnasts don't have the same large amount of schoolwork, and therefore have
the time to train for both compulsories and optionals.

Assuming that dancework roughly ballances out the difference
between 6 and 4 events, why is it collegiate men find enough time practice
international compulsories and be competitive with their non-collegiate
competition but collegiate women don't? I suppose the only answer is that
men tend to reach their prime in their college years, whereas women are
slightly past it, so the non-collegiate men aren't normally at the level
where they can compete with collegiate men.

It does seem that collegiate men and women do practice quite a bit
(as much as I was practicing when I was pre-college) despite their course
load. Do the younger female gymnasts really pack in that many more hours
of practice? I would be interested in the workout schedules of both a
collegiate and a non-collegiate top level female gymnasts.

Dave

***@aol.com writes:
> >How is
> it that getting rid of compulsories will help collegiate women compele
> >internationally?
>
> Not needing 12+ hours a week to train them...
>
> Mara
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 00:21:02 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: compulsories

>why is it collegiate men find enough time practice
international compulsories and be competitive with their non-collegiate
competition

They don't. I was talking with the US guys at the US-Rom meet and asked
about compos. The consensus (among the 4 guys that I spoke to) was they
don't train compos *at all* during the collegiate season

Mara

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 03:54:20 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: compulsories

Hi,

My two cents, speaking from observation of Worlds and Olympics from 1987 on
(and before via the miracle of video).

First, I have mixed feelings. Sad to see 'em go, but they had become a moot
point in competitive terms. Not so much new life as plain old-fashioned
cheating ...

Barcelona was the high-water mark of compulsory-judging nonsense. There were
so many, but my favorite was Bontas' beam set, with no connection on the
series, no amplitude, minimum-standard execution and no flow, rhythm or
beauty. In a word, average. I told a photographer next to me that that piece
of junk would go 9.80. (It looked like a 9.20 to me.) She got 9.90.

But if it's broke, shouldn't you fix it? Or is FIG just admitting defeat?

As for interpretation, those who've seen the girls try the compulsory vault
(piked Tsuk) and wondered what it was supposed to be, you're not alone. At
USA Nationals last year, some laid it out completely, some piked and many
(particularly juniors - we forget how the Yurchenko leveled the playing field
vis a vis the little tykes) were just happy to make it to their feet in any
position.

The '88 compulsory was a tucked Tsuk. The best girls hit a tuck or open-tuck
position, then kicked out to show maximum amplitude. Here and there scores
reflected this.

On the other end, at '89 World Trials, when the '92 comp. Yamashita-half was
new (well, to these youngsters), most of the vaults looked like
handspring-halfs. After Wendy Bruce competed, my mother remarked, "I didn't
realize they were supposed to pike." Yes, and Wendy also blasted it higher
and farther than most at the World Championships the next month. No, her
score didn't reflect it much.

My general take is that well-constructed compulsories do show the relative
strengths and weaknesses of a gymnast or team to the observer, but politics
too often diminishes or even cancels any edge an athlete should gain with
superior form, line, execution, technique, amplitude, etc. Just ask the
Chinese girls.

See ya,
Nancy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 09:01:28 +1000
From: <***@pharm.med.upenn.edu>
Subject: compulsories

>>why is it collegiate men find enough time practice
>international compulsories and be competitive with their non-collegiate
>competition
>
>They don't. I was talking with the US guys at the US-Rom meet and asked
>about compos. The consensus (among the 4 guys that I spoke to) was they
>don't train compos *at all* during the collegiate season
>
>Mara

Only because it is not required by NCAA anymore. When NCAA required the
comps. they worked them. Also, the 4 guys you spoke with are all
Americans, those who come from other countries to go to college and compete
here do the comps. during the school year - Danny Ackerman (Temple/Israel);
Lee Ricketts (PSU/England) do the Compos in preparation for the European
championships and many of them are on the worlds teams for their countries.


Regarding women's workout schedules at the collegiate level - I know that
many of the college programs don't have a summer workout session, so the
women can take more time off - or go back to their home clubs or camps. I
don't know of any men's collegiate programs that have the summer off - at
least not those that train NCAA I.

At Penn State the times of practice were (it has been a couple of years,
and this was under Judi and not Steve) from about 2-3PM to 4-5PM. Men were
generally in there before 2 and didn't leave til about 6.

During my time in Phila. (since april) and my attendance to Temple
practices I have not seen the women working out as a team - so I suppose
they stop after NCAA season ends. Right now Temple is in the gym from 1 -
4:30 daily - sometimes Sunday off.

Mayland

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 09:15:49 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: compulsories

I think if they got rid of compulsories they would have to change the name
from ARTISTIC gym. to ACROBATIC.....I am a mother of one who has spent 12+
hours on compulsories and I have heard the pros and cons.....I happen to love
the artistic part....RE:Boginskya (sp) I remember Dominic D. when she was
little...compulsories were her downfall....They had kept her out of the top
for a while...then when her compulsories improved she took on a differnt
look....more elegant look ....I think the training on the compulsories
carries over into the optionals.....and the girls with the best compulsories
usually have the best form and line in optionals....which makes the optionals
look ARTISTIC ....not a stunt show....I am a mother not a coach.......and
this is my two cents..
Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 10:22:36 -0400
From: <***@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Subject: Dawes' UB

Hi there.
Just wondering: After recently seeing Dominique Dawes' UB routine for the
first time a couple of weeks ago, I was wondering how this routine has a
10.0 start value. As I am quite unfamiliar with the code of points, could
somebody please break down the routine and designate the difficulty of each
particular move? Thank you much.

Also, another thing to ponder and investigate: With all this talk about
today's elite "women" gymnasts getting younger and younger, I was wondering
if somebody could perhaps find the average age of the U.S.'s Olympic and
World teams from say, '84 on? I remember Kathy Johnson talking about how
she was so young in her first World Championships at like 19 years old.

OK, enough thoughts for the time being.
Thanks once again for any and all help.

Toho

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 18:05:25 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Gymn Administravia

First the administravia:

1. Time for another Gymn Pub posting. Remember, the purpose of Gymn Pub is
to let us get caught up on each other's lives. Sort of like those cheesy
"What cha been doing?" sections in Alumni magazines. ;) So, if you've just
graduated, moved into a new house, gotten married, gone traveling, had your
wisdom teeth pulled, played an important recital... you get the picture.
Just let me know. I'll compile everyone's tidbits and post them in a week
or two (more likely two). Maybe I'll solicit a contribution from Adriana,
since we all miss her so. ;)

2. I just want to take this opportunity to remind new members that we'd like
to hear from you! I know we've gotten lots of new subscribers lately -- go
ahead and write Gymn and let us know who you are. (Or, if you're an old
subscriber/poster who never wrote an intro, stop being shy!)

3. Gymn Poll #3 in the message to follow. I've unfortunately lost my file
from last time asking for suggestions (I know, I feel bad enough, no need to
glare at me like that), so I decided just to wing it this time. But anyways.

Now the fun non-admin part:

I am nearing the end of my vacation now -- it's been great but I'm ready to
get back to real life. I saw many Gymners in my travels: George , Nancy
Ray., Susan, Robyn K., Mara, Mayland, Toby and Sara Rabold...
sorry if I've forgotten anyone! The mind wanders when on vacation, you know.

Gymnastics-wise, I attended practice for the L10 Sr. Nationals in Seattle,
the tri-meet in Phoenix, the dual meet in Worcester, a couple workouts of the
men's gym team at Temple (Bill Roth's high bar was indeed magnificent; and
this other guy, Sasha Raught, threw *three* hop-fulls to one-arm Tkatchev to
Gienger!); also briefly visited the Parkettes gym and watched some 1994
Worlds and some '70's tapes with Fred Turoff (men's Temple coach) and
Mayland. Also saw tapes of Ms. Sara Rabold in competition at the L10 Jr.
Nationals (a *very* fast rotater, she is).

You know, it's not hard to fit in a lot of gymnastics when one travels for
two months!

Oh yes, also, while in DC, I looked through the old yearbooks of the friend I
was staying with, and found pictures of Dominique Dawes and Tamara Levinson.
Too cute.

Later,
Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 18:05:43 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Gymn Poll #3

PLEASE SEND YOUR REPLY TO ***@AOL.COM.

Gymn Poll #3
30 June 1994

1. You are the FIG. You feel pressured to drop the compulsories due to
complaints of too much expense and time for the elite gymnast. Dropping
compulsories encourages some gymnasts to stay in the sport longer.
Compulsories are a financial obstacle to developing nations. The average
public does not understand or enjoy them; accordingly, TV does not want to
air them. It costs you vast amounts of money to have compulsories, because
it takes time to develop the routines, and more importantly, it takes lots of
money to run the compulsory sessions of competition (arena rental, salaries,
etc).

However, you believe in compulsories: Good compulsories directly translates
to good gymnastics. They add safety to the sport in that they encourage
gymnasts to have the basics before trying the more difficult skills. Those
who love the sport love compulsories. They are an ingrained tradition in the
sport and often make the difference in separating the good from the great.
To drop compulsories would mean removing a fundamental part of the sport,
changing it forever. You worry that dropping compulsories will make the
sport too "circus-like", that dropping the compulsories will create a lack of
discipline.

What do you do? Drop compulsories, or keep them? [Please, don't send
lengthy explanations with your answer -- just tell me "keep them" or "drop
them".]

2. In honor of David Michaels, NBC Exec, joining our forum:

a. What would you do to improve TV coverage of gymnastics?

b. Who are your favorite commentators and why?

c. What was your favorite televised gymnastics event in the last ten years?
Why was it your favorite? (Any network, any competition. Please pick your
favorite based on the quality of TV coverage, not because your favorite
gymnast won!)

OK, that's all folks. Remember, mail to gymnjunk@aol.com. (AOL'ers need
only address their reply to "GymnJunk", of course.)

Rachele

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 19:30:59 -0500
From: ***@psu.edu
Subject: Hello!

Hello to everyone on "gymn!" I am new to this list, having just subscribed
this week, but I am thrilled to discover a forum that is devoted to
discussing my favorite sport! In introducing myself, I would like to state
that I am a lifelong Penn State Nittany Lion fan. I've been attending Penn
State meets since I was about 6 months old, so I do actually bleed blue and
white. In the past few years I have had the wonderful opportunity to spend
time talking with our assistant coach Vladimir Novikov and also Vitaly
Scherbo, who has spent a significant amount of time training here. I have
also had the opportunity to talk to Gene Wettstone, who I consider to be a
true legend in gymnastics. I feel Penn State is a great place for
gymnastics fans and I feel lucky to have the opportunity to work here;
which brings me to my question.

I work for WPSX-TV, the universitys television station. We produce a lot
of Penn State's sporting events for broadcast to large audiences.
Gymnastics is often a tough event to cover for television. Sometimes the
pace is too slow, sometimes too fast, and sometimes it is difficult to
determine what the audience wants to see. It is sometimes a "balancing
act" trying to determine the level of gymnastics knowledge of our audience.
We don't want to get too detailed in our coverage for fear that we will
lose the audience with information they don't understand but we also would
like to educate the audience in some of the more technical aspects. It is
difficult to figure out what the audience enjoys seeing.

I would like to take this opportunity to open this up for discussion. What
specifically, can make a gymnastics broadcast exciting to you? I
acknowledge the fact that most of you are very knowledgeable about the
sport and that you probably would not represent the typical TV audience,
but you do know the sport and your input would be valuable. For example;
do you like to see personal features on some of the participants, do you
like point-of-view cameras mounted very near the apparatus, do you like to
see dual-meets with both men and women or do you prefer single meets?
Anything like this that makes a telecast more exciting or drives you crazy
is what I'm looking for.

I look forward to your responses and continued participation with this
list. Thanks!

Jeffrey

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 12:50:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: ***@ulibnet.mtsu.edu
Subject: Kim Zmeskal

There was a brief news item about Kim Zmeskal in today's USA TODAY. It
mentioned that her injury on June 10th (USA V. Romania - exhibition) was
a torn tendon in her right knee that did require surgery. It goes on to
say that she is already back training at Karolyi's.

Sharon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jul 1994 01:30:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: ***@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
Subject: Mary Lou on Baywatch

Check you local listings for time and channel, but the Baywatch rerun
for this week features Mary Lou as herself who sort of helps the Baywatch gang
organize a Special Olympics event, or so the TV Guide plot summary says.
Oh bummer Rachele. Do I really have to write my own intro?
Looks like CBC coverage for the Commonwealth Games will be spectacular.
Compulsories do separate the gymnasts. It's the judging system that's a
problem in my opinion. The judges take deductions and write down scores. They
never have an opportunity to rank the gymnasts. In skating (okay, the judging's
bad there as well, but at least there are no ties...) the judges rank the
skaters via score - two skaters cannot recieve the same artistic AND technical
score from the same judge. Someone who knows more about skating than I do could
help explaining this system more than myself, but a ranking system could at
least help event finals competitions in gymnastics.
Some of the most biased judging I have seen was in compulories.
Someone mentioned why more men compete NCAA and international. Well,
more and more of them are not. There are some spectacular competitors in NCAA
who do not compete internationally for the US men's team and vice versa. Many
leave school in order to train more, and some stay in school and only compete
NCAA because the training's free and they don't have the time or energy for
both.
Someone mentioned videotapes for compusories. My computer final this
semester could be a preliminary step towards the development of a design
program of the "ultimate" compulsory routine, with a computer animated gymnast
showing several different views of optimum executions of a trick, complete with
step-by-step directions for what the judges are looking for. It isn't that
advanced yet, but if I can do it, surely some of the folks at USAG and the FIG
could possibly look into this as an alternative to a printed Code of Points and
standard compulsory distribution method. updates could be avaliable online as
needed. Possibilities are limitless. This would work better on vault and bars
than, say, floor dance, but would be superior, in my opinion, to the current
Code book.
Any thoughts?
Cara
I'm too tired to think of anything else to say. I have no smooth train
of thought to start out with.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 10:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: <***@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Sears Directors Cup (fwd)

I received this on a women's basketball mailing list:
Forwarded message:

> Subject: Sears Directors Cup
>
> Led by its national titles in women's basketball and women's soccer, the
> University of North Carolina has been named the winner of the first Sears
> Directors Cup, which honors the Division I school with the best performance
> in 22 men' s and women's sports. The school receives a Waterford crystal
> trophy and a $5,000 scholarship for a student member of the athletic support
> staff. Here is the final poll along with a description of how points are
> tabulated:
>
> SEAR'S DIRECTORS CUP TOP 25
> Final 1994 Rankings
>
> Rank, School Points
> 1. North Carolina 806.5
> 2. Stanford 786.5
> 3. UCLA 779.5
> 4. Florida 768.0
> 5. Penn State 756.0
> 6. Arizona 710.0
> 7. Texas 697.5
> 8. Southern Cal 677.0
> 9. Michigan 656.0
> 10. Arizona State 603.0
> 11. Notre Dame 595.0
> 12. Wisconsin 565.0
> 13. Tennessee 560.0
> 14. Minnesota 553.0
> 15. Alabama 552.5
> 16. Clemson 546.5
> 17. California 534.5
> 18. Nebraska 524.5
> 19. Virginia 513.0
> 20. Oklahoma 499.0
> 21. Georgia 495.5
> 22. Brigham Young 488.0
> 23. Ohio State 483.5
> 24. Texas A&M 454.5
> 25. Florida State 454.0
>
> Division I standings are computed by the National Association of Collegiate
> Directors of Athletics. Points awarded for each school's finish in 22
> NACDA-recognized sports--10 core sports for men, 10 core sports for women and
> one wild card each for men and women. National champions in a sport receive
> 64 points, second-place gets 63, etc., through tournament field. Football
> points are based on the final USA Today Coaches Top 25 poll. Final rankings
> for 1993-94 competition year.
>
> >Men's core sports: Basketball, cross country, tennis, baseball, golf,
> track and field (indoor or outdoor, but not both), football, soccer, swimming
> and wrestling.
> >Women's core sports: Basketball, cross country, tennis, volleyball, track
> and field (indoor or outdoor, but not both), softball, swimming, golf, soccer
> and field hockey.
> >Wild cards: Points are awarded for a school's highest finish in one men's
> and one women's NACDA-recognized non-core sport.
>

Anyone notice a glaring omission from the list of core sports? I guess
being the second most-popular women's collegiate sport (first in some
areas) just doesn't rate highly enough on someone's list!

Sorry to post the whole thing just to make a point, but I didn't want to
tease anyone who interested in the entire rankings.

-Patrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 22:06:05 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Trivia Questions Needed

Well guys, time for more trivia. The topic is:

Original Moves

Please e-mail your questions directly to me.

***@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 12:43:46 EST
From: ***@email.cfr.org
Subject: Women's Rankings

Susan-

Interesting.......I am not alone in the pursuit of "gym stimuli" (or
stimulus, in general ;-) ). A few years back I compared the scores of the
romanian teams that won the worlds in 1979 and 1987. I even drew a graph
depicting apparatus v scores, charting the progression of both. I think
I was trying to find reason behind those blessed statistics courses taken
as an undergrad (see.....it does come into play now and again).

Connie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 00:51:45 EDT
From: ***@aol.com
Subject: Women in sports study...

gymnastics pertainent excerpts from: ATHLETICS' IMPACT ON GIRLS' HEALTH SET
FOR STUDY 6/29/94

By DON KIRKMAN
Scripps Howard News Service

When Olympic gold medal gymnast Olga Korbut started falling off balance beams
some years ago, she couldn't understand what was happening to her body. She
was stunned when a doctor told her she was pregnant.

''Korbut's long, grueling gymnastics training and inadequate diet made her
miss so many menstrual periods that when she became pregnant she didn't
realize it,'' U.S. Olympic Committee physician Dr. Rebecca Jaffe explained.
''Korbut did nothing but practice, diet and miss periods for years.''

That's one of the physical problems that girls aged six to 14 are
encountering after intensive training in gymnastics, swimming, diving, figure
skating, ballet, track, tennis, cycling and other sports.

These problems will be studied Thursday by two dozen sports physicians,
coaches and U.S. Olympic Committee officials during a seminar in Washington,
D.C.

The physical problems of young female athletes have mushroomed since the
expansion of intensive physical training programs during the past 10 to 15
years, Hale said. That's especially true for young gymnasts, swimmers, tennis
players and runners, he said.

''There was a lot of parental pushing,'' he added. ''Many parents wanted
their children to be like (gymnast) Shannon Miller, (diver) Mark Spitz and
(diver) Greg Louganis.''

''We also know young girls are encouraged to eat less so they can have
slender bodies that are easy to flip around,'' he added.

Jaffe said some girls are starving themselves to attain the ''petite look''
that encourages higher marks in gymnastics and figure skating.

''Some gymnasts have shorter legs than swimmers of the same age, and we
wonder if they're caused by repeated impacts with gymnastic mats,'' she said.

She also noted that gymnasts and figure skaters who frequently twist and turn
suffer an inordinate number of stress fractures and bone, muscle and tendon
injuries.

By far the most common health concern for girl athletes is Korbut's problem:
delayed menarche (initiation of menstruation, which usually occurs at age 13)
and missed menstrual periods.

Harvard University associate athletic director Patricia Henry she has seen
some young women whose menarche was delayed for five, six or seven years,
then suffered erratic periods.

Jaffe said she's concerned about the psychological problems being caused by
professional coaches. ''A number of gymnastic coaches are running factories
that require little seven- and eight-year-olds to practice seven or eight
hours per day and not eat,'' she said. ''I wonder what's happening to those
children.''

The results of the day-long seminar will be reported to the USOC.

-posted by Susan

------------------------------

End of gymn Digest
******************************